Ignorant, can you guys help me get started on water softening ?

[MaplesonD]

Hey,
I have been searching around for information about water softening. We just moved into a house that is on a community well and I know that we have hard water. I'm not exactly sure where to start. Here are some questions:

First, is there a FAQ or something where I might go for water softening info?
I gather that I need to get the water tested, is there an economical but reliable way to do this?
I am also on septic, I have read that there is brine to discharge. Is this safe for my septic system?
Our house is about 3000 sq ft, currently two adults and 1 child, what kind of capacity should I be looking for?
I want the best balance between function, reliability, economy; I have seen Fleck come up a lot is this a good brand to focus on?
If any of you are from around the triangle area in NC, are there any reputable dealers that I should look into?

Thanks for any help you can offer, if there is a good thread that already discusses this, just point me in that direction.

 

[Smooky]

You need to do a water sample first. Durham County Environmental Health offers that service for a small fee.

http://dconc.gov/home/showdocument?id=4417

These guys are good and are in your area.
http://www.allcleanwater.com/

 

[Sponsor]

 

[MaplesonD]

Awesome, thanks for helping me get started!

 

[Reach4]

I like kit60: http://www.karlabs.com/watertestkit/ Important numbers for choosing treatment IMHO generally are hardness, iron, manganese, pH, maybe sulfate. Checking for things like arsenic is good too, but that is not signficant in most water. Silicon is good to know. Other stuff could become important even if it is not common.

See http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm and continue with the link at the bottom. You don't need to absorb it all the first time.

Fleck is good and they can be worked with by professionals and DIY.

 

[Bannerman]

We just moved into a house that is on a community well

Check with the operator of the water system. It is likely that the water has already been tested and a report is available to anyone within the community, by only asking.

 

[MaplesonD]

Thanks for the link to karlabs, I purchased the kit60 since it seemed to cover everything I need and is a bit less expensive

Check with the operator of the water system. It is likely that the water has already been tested and a report is available to anyone within the community, by only asking.

I did check with our HOA, the website (which hasn't been updated since 2013) said the water averages 194 mg/L hardness (which google converts to 11 grains/gallon). It didn't include info on iron, manganese, pH or anything else more specific. The water report available online from the company that operates the well doesn't include hardness levels, just stuff like bacteria, lead, etc.

 

[Bannerman]

the water averages 194 mg/L hardness

Is the water obtained from more than one source or does hardness vary by season or other cause? In any event, the softener hardness setting should not be based upon an 'average' level.

If the hardness varies, you as a consumer will not know when the hardness level has changed so as to reprogram the softener. You should program for the highest normal hardness level expected.

You may want to purchase a Hach 5B Total Hardness test kit to periodically verify water hardness yourself.

The analysis report from the well operator should be reliable. Perhaps post those results or include a link to their site.

Iron and manganese will influence softener size but as the water is supplied to multiple homes, I expect it will be chlorinated in which case, any iron and manganese will have been oxidized and will no longer be an issue to softening.

 

[Reach4]

I would put a cartridge filter in at the front end. I like the Pentek Big Blue housings which can accept a wide range of non-propitiatory cartridges. It may be overkill, but I prefer overkill for such things.

 

[MaplesonD]

Here is a link to the report from Aquaamerica (our water company). I will try calling them tomorrow to see if they have something more useful.

https://www.aquaamerica.com/WaterQualityReports/2014/NC/NC0368185.pdf

 

[Bannerman]

You're right, they don't report much. The water is derived from 5 wells but usually, the water report will indicate various levels of organic and inorganic contaminants from each source.

Chlorination is verified in the report so I don't expect Iron or Manganese will be an issue and they can now be filtered out as sediment as R4 suggested.

As previously stated, hardness level setting should be based upon the highest level normally expected. With the water sourced from 5 wells, hardness may vary between sources and some wells maybe offline at various times due to lower expected consumption requirements or maintenance. An average of 11 grains doesn't clarify whether the hardness range is 10-12, 8-14 or 6-16.

 

[Bannerman]

In order to assist in determining the size of softener appropriate for your requirements, in addition to the hardness level expected, we will also need to know your water consumption requirements (often estimated by the number of residents), your incoming water feed size and your flow requirements (usually estimated by the number of bathrooms, multi-head showers, high volume fixtures etc). Water used for outside irrigation is not usually softened.

 

[MaplesonD]

Hey Guys,
It took a bit of time, but I got the lab results back and I got an estimate from AllClear for a new system. I've attached both to this post (edited to remove personal info). The AllClear estimate used his own measurements for hardness/pH/iron content, not my KAR lab results.

To answer Bannerman's questions:

• consumption: we currently have two adults and one 15-month old, at some point will probably expand family by at least one child.
• incoming water feed size is 3/4 inch copper pipe
• flow requirements: 3.5 bathrooms, master bathroom has two shower heads (i'm not sure what the flow rates are for the showers, would an easy fix here be to just have low-flow shower heads in all the bathrooms?)

So does allclear's system seem appropriate for my needs? Is his estimate specific enough, do I need to ask for model #'s? I wouldn't mind purchasing the components of the system myself and just having him install it if that would save a significant chunk of money, but not sure if that is necessary or inconsiderate to his business model. Any help/feedback is appreciated.

 

[Bannerman]

To start with, you may wish to stop drinking the water and have a discussion with your water supplier. While the supplier's report indicates the water to be chlorinated, there is no mention of chlorine in your Kar report. In fact, the report indicates a positive result for E. Coli and coliform bacteria.

 

[MaplesonD]

The test kit I used doesn't test for the byproducts of chlorine (aside from chloride) from what I can see, so for now I have to assume that the water company is chlorinating like they say they are. The report also said it is fairly common for aerators to harbor some bacteria and its also possible I could have contaminated the sample. Considering all that, I'm not super concerned about the positive result for the bacteria at this point, but I will look into it further to ensure it is not an issue. Any thoughts about the softening system?

 

[Smooky]

You may want to contact the North Carolina Public Water Supply Section. When I get a bad sample back on a community well I contact Alan Hardee at 919-791-4297. He’ll light a fire under their ass.

http://www.ncwater.org/?page=9/

 

[Reach4]

I agree it was probably contamination during drawing the sample. But still, I think I would order some low range test strips such as http://www.lamotte.com/en/drinking-water/test-strips/2964-g.html to check that there is some residual chlorine.

 

[MaplesonD]

Thanks Reach4, that looks like a simple way to address part of this issue, I'll update when I have time this week to find the strips. When I was reading another site's method for collecting water for the purposes of testing for bacteria, the method involved removing the aerator and holding the tip of the faucet in bleach for a length of time and then running the water for five minutes. Aside from running the water, KAR didn't instruct me to do the other stuff, so I think it is pretty likely the positive result is probably from my collection technique. I'll contact the water supply link that Smooky left me if the strips lead me to believe that the water isn't chlorinated adequately.

So, what do you guys think about the other parts of my question? Is that a decent estimate for a water softener? Should I purchase my own equipment online? I know this is a DIY forum, but I do plan on having a pro install the system as I have no experience and don't want to jump into this type of plumbing project to get my feet wet (also the guy Smooky told me about seemed like a good guy, he spent a good amount of time figuring out where he might place the system and talking with me).

 

[Gary Slusser]

You are getting some bad advice from folks that have no experience in bacteria contaminated water. You don't want to pooh pooh E-Coli contamination. DO NOT assume ANYTHING except that the test result is accurate... a test showed serious contamination, pay attention to it.

You really need to sanitize (much more than just the faucet tip) and redo the test while not ingesting any of your water until you get a no bacteria test result. Bacteria contaminated water effects kids and women long before most men but many times there are no symptoms until a bit too late and someone gets very sick. The symptoms are headaches, digestive system problems, gas, diarrhea, a tired run down can't get one foot in front of the other feeling etc..

As to the equipment, you can't compare prices etc. until you know what model Fleck metered valve is being used... And you have no need for fine mesh resin. Also, IMO you'd do much better if you used POU (point of use) filters on the shower heads,, 'fridge and kitchen sink with its own RO type faucet than two separate big blue cartridge filters to remove chlorine. BTW, chloride is normally found in waters and has nothing to do with the addition of chlorine. You use a chlorine test for chlorine (or her nose). And if you used a BB to remove chlorine you don't need one for Sediment.

The dealer you are 'dealing' with...IMO he is treating you like a mushroom that he's growing - keeping you in the dark and feeding ya all the BS he can.

 

[ditttohead]

A Big Blue should not be used for whole house chlorine reduction (their term is Chlorine Chemical Removal... a big "no no"). Carbon requires considerable contact time for effective reduction. While a BB may be very cheap up front, the long term maintenance costs and poor performance make it a poor choice for even the smallest house. A typical cartridge has an estimated capacity of <20,000 gallons, or for the average household of 4, 80 days. A backwashing system with a similar sized tank is a much better, albeit much more expensive choice. Standard resin is preferred for most applications. Not sure how much chlorine you have if you are showing 1ppm of iron. Sounds like you have some potentially conflicting reports.

 

[MaplesonD]

Hey guys, have been busy with overtime at work and holiday stuff. I am trying to get back on track so we can get a softener installed and I had a few more questions.

Using the calculations from the link Gary provided, using 4 people (we only have three, but plan on having another) and 60 gallons per person per day (our average for the past few months is about 140 gallons per day total), it puts me at ~30,000 grains of capacity. It seems that a 1.5 cubic foot tank would be adequate. What size tanks correlate to 1.5 cubic feet? 12x52 is what the guy recommended.

Do I need to be concerned about oversizing the tank/softening system if right now I am not using that much water, but may in a few years?

Do I need to be concerned with removing chlorine at all? Dittohead says above that the carbon filter is inefficient and costly, is chlorine reduction common? Gary suggests using filters at each faucet/location plus a RO faucet, but that sounds pretty costly as well. I'm generally satisfied with whatever ppm concentrations government bodies suggest are reasonable, so if they are the ones putting it in the water I would tend to believe I don't need to mess with it. Thoughts?

I'm not sure why he suggested fine mesh resin as that seems to mostly be for removing iron, which I don't have a problem with (lab report said <0.01 ppm). I'm don't see any reason not to use regular resin. How much of a difference should that make in the cost?

I came across an article that suggested that draining the brine into the septic is not harmful to the septic. Then I found another that said the opposite, what is the consensus here? Here are some of the contradicting articles:
http://www.nesc.wvu.edu/smart/pdf/sourcewater/SFQ_FW07_backwash.pdf
http://extension.missouri.edu/webster/water-softeners-and-septic-tanks.aspx