I no longer use that membrane

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JohnfrWhipple

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What is this picture trying to prove? That a pro surfer can stand up on some foam? Look at the foam. Between the white layer and the orange layer is pressed paper of sorts. This wicks water. This once wet looses it's strength.

Advertising. Advertising Advertising.

Images like this and sales tactics like this make me sick.

And people wonder why I quit using it....
y Jo

hn Whipple
 
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s blyth

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Kerdi for steam shower

Nothing is more important in a bathroom renovation than the flood test. I have read some really stupid advice online about how to properly flood test a Kerdi Shower - much of this coming from the John Bridge Forum where I have heard of everything from using a ballon *, a tennis ball to using a chaulking tube. Insane these methods. Flood testing is best done with an inflatable test plug or a twist-n-set plug like you see in the photo below.

The reason for this is because it not only tests the connection of the Kerdi to the drain but also from the drain to the vertical length of pipe above the P-Trap. If anyone tells you different. They are wrong.

This business of building showers is complex - there are many steps to take. The flood test is not the responsibility of the tile installer but it should be when it is he or she doing the work. The tile body's which over see the tile business list the resposnibility for this test as "Others" - who the hell are the others. Make sure you include a flood test in your scope of work. This will net you a better shower and one that you know that works as designed.

Flood tests are best preformed for a period of 72 hours. Not 10 minutes. Not overnight - 72 hours. The least I would leave one is 24 or 48 hours. Shoot for three days.



This shower is a curbless shower in Coquitlam. Kerdi is not allowed to be used with a clamping drain so you will notice the NobleDeck membrane in the divot section of my shower prep. The shower turned out great and we used the drain from a botched Proline - Kerdi Steam Shower we repaired for a client to build my buddy a Kick Ass Shower. Here is a peak at the end result.


Kerdi DS Curbless Shower


* Ballon Recommendation from John Bridge member "Lazarus"
Texas Tile Contractor
- http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1148053&postcount=2 This John Bridge member has over 5,000 post online and writes "Don't think I ever water tested a Kerdi pan. I trust it and, never a problem...but the inspector may require it. A balloon works just fine for this..."

Well - a ballon does not work just fine since it does not check the connection of the drain to the shower's waste line.

Another member on the John Bridge Forum with 30,000+ posts writes this "....Get a plumber's test plug or even a party balloon to seal the drain. Some one here used a tennis ball stuffed into a rubber glove for a plug. You need something that can maintain a seal around the inside of the drain pipe. That red tape isn't up to the task." - Poster BBCamp - Source

So the info started out well and then failed. Who writes 30,000 post and does not know that a tennis ball is not allowed?



Here is an inflatable test plug and a Kerdi Drain. These types of drains can be found at any plumbing wholesaler. I use either my compressor or my kids bike pump to inflate them. Many times other types of drains my require an extension hose for the inflation part. It's a good idea to dry-fit and test these plugs prior to the actually flood test. Yesterday we set the plug and then added in about four cups of water. We marked the water level on the shower pan with tile spacers and then four or five hours later set the proper flood test - after we knew we had a proper seal with the test plug.

Below is another example of a flood test. This shower prepared with NobleSeal TS. Any shower regardless of the type of waterproofing needs to be flood tested. If you skip this step you basically give the builder of your shower a green light to kind of do a good job.

When waterproofing your shower you get need to get it right. "When it's perfect - It's good Enough" - John Whipple



John is Kerdi ok to use in a Steam shower??????
 
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s blyth

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kerdi for steam shower

John is kerdi ok to use in a Steam shower ????
 

Eurob

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on my projects I use Kerdi Fix and a Compression Flashing I make onsite.

Above I have set the flashing into some Kerdi Fix and am setting the Kerdi DS flat with my 3" taping knife. I'll do a pull check and then back fill some Ardex 8+9 on the edges and finish setting this flashing with that product.

This is a very good advice John . :)
 

Eurob

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But you are John . You are a Pro in this , maybe they leave it to the Pros to figure them out . Schluter makes reference to pipes flanges in their literature , but the use is of a more general one . For steaming purposes , the warranty is the responsibility of the installer . It looks like you find the right way .

My concern would be if the Kerdi fix is approved -- in the long term exposure -- for the connection point with the outlet . Temperature wise .
 
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Eurob

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That's the real question. I have found marine grade silicone with high heat ratings but are they safe with tile and grout? Regular silicone is rated to over 200 Celsius, I would think Kerdi Fix can take the heat. The data sheet on Kerdi fix posts it at 100 degrees max or short thirty minute burst to 180 degrees. The ThermaSol steam head is solid brass and quite large. I imagine it will help dispurse the heat.

I've always wanted to check this out. Make a box out of Kerdi and Kerdi fix and then steam the shit out of it. See if the Kerdi Fix holds. The ThermaSol fitting has an O ring that further seals the trim from the rough in. Pretty bullet proof and if all goes to shit there is still the compression factor of the custom job site cut flashing.


The 100 degree mark is pretty close to vapors so in the long run you may be at the limit .

Using something similar to this

Red high Temp RTV.jpg

may do the trick . Since you are imbedding the fleece from the Kerdi DS , leaving it unsealed at edges , The Red high temp RTV will definitely cure properly . I don't see how it can affect the tile and the grout since it is behind the Kerdi DS . The Loctite RHT RTV is stable in the long term venture .

As long as temperatures seen by the High temperature RTV are not above 150 degrees -- is this one of the reasons it is hard to spec a safe product for the application at hand? --, it is safe to use it .

Read the material safety data sheet http://www.myhenkel.asia/documents/msds-tds/AU/MSDS/en/Loctite_596_Superflex_Red_High_Temperature_RTV_Sealant.pdf at page 4


It looks like this product '' Permatex® Ultra Copper® Maximum Temperature RTV Silicone Gasket Maker '' has the dangerous point at 300 degrees . I would say this product have a better chance in your application . Do a test of bonding 2 pieces of Kerdi DS together , we may be lucky . I don't see why it wouldn't work , since the fleece should give up before the RTV looses bond from it .

http://www.permatex.com/products-2/product-categories/gasketing/gasket-makers/permatex-ultra-copper-maximum-temperature-rtv-silicone-gasket-maker-detail is the link for it . Also read the MDS under Available sizes on the same web page .
 
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Eurob

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johnfrwhipple said:
Roberto I'm of the mind set that Schluter would have placed a warning label on the spec sheet if they did not think Kerdi Fix was OK for steam showers. One day I'll check this out but until then I'll keep using the Kerdi Fix. Five years later - no issues.

I was simply addressing the specific connection location only , where the steam nozzle is meeting with the Kerdi DS .

The rest of the shower , except the specific area is no issue .

I guess after five years of doing -- you -- steam rooms it is a good sign that you have the good product . But then , like I here many times from others , if it worked at my place than it is good . You were looking for a specific recommendation from the manufacturer for the specific connection , didn't expect you to give up so easily . LOL
 

Eurob

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Roberto I tried and tried to get this info from anybody. My emails to Schluter and Noble left unanswered. Try yourself to get a recommendation from anyone.

Call Mapei.

Call Ardex.

Call Schluter.

Call Noble Company.

I will send you a free drain if you can produce an email from any one of these manufactures on the proper sealant for the steam fitting connection. Double dare you.

Now perhaps it's my visibility online that I do not get an email. Maybe they will send it to you - but not me.

When you look at Noble and Schluter Companies in particular I find it _____ing insane that not one of these giant players in the vapour proofing industry has a spec sheet detail.... Insane I tell you - Insane. But I guess every company likes to leave a little loop hole.

I bet we could ask Dave Gobis - but that would cost us thousands for the answer I'm sure. I'm sure he has testified against failed steam showers in the past.

We could ask that retired hack John Bridge - but he will say something like "A Little Birdie told me....."

I got a free linear or square drain on it Roberto with your name on it.

I want to know how to seal the ThermaSol steam outlets rough in to the Kerdi DS or NobleSeal TS membrane. Something in writing from either company.

Lets see what you can do. Maybe you can woo them with your accent! lol


I am sure with my french speaking I will convinced them to give me whatever I want :rolleyes:

I think you are looking in the wrong direction John . Oh , by the way , have the linear drain shipped with the ACO strainer :D , it is pretty easy to answer to your concerns .

The specifier(s) makes the assembly and the proper procedures to follow . Since you are the specifier for all your clients with theirs steam shower project , you are suppose to specify , have and cover all the aspects of the layout , insure all of the products to be installed -- from A to Z -- following the technical guidelines . I am quite surprised you don't have the '' proper '' procedure for , quote " steam outlets rough in to the Kerdi DS or NobleSeal TS membrane '' .

But I thought I already did give you the answer . :)
 

Eurob

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No words twisting on my part John .

TCNA 2012 Handbook --- SR614-12 --- gives you some of the specific wording .

If you are playing in the big leagues , most of the time wording like this ones are seen on the plans to be followed .

Important plans Notes 001.jpg

Nothing new with the wording John .


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If you are the specifyer , for the whole assembly of the steam room or the steam shower , using their membrane -- Kerdi DS -- , it should be just normal to get the answer for your technical issue '' steam outlets rough vs. the Kerdi DS '' .........You may have already the answer for residential steam shower .....use the Kerdi fix , but if you need it for different applications -- commercial set ups -- they should give it to you . However , just inquiring it , for the '' fun of it '' is probably not a good idea .


So , when I am going to receive the drain ? :p

If you would send me the drain , just to be clear on it , it will be donated to someone in need for it . Proof of work in progress , locally ,requiring the specific drain will be needed . :)
 

Eurob

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Don't worry , I am not interested in the free drain . I am sure you can get those answers on your own , limitations with what you do with them is always a good idea . Just saying ....... not much from YPOV , but sufficient for many of us .


JW said:
Your wording is general info that is included in the TTMAC and TCNA specifications - it does not address specific products like Kerdi Fix or Noble Sealant 150.

No it doesn't . But I didn't put them there for specifics issues or situations . Seems like you are discussing few different things , but at the end you are only interested in Kerdi fix or Noble Sealant 150 and your situation .

Call the mfg and require politely clarifications . If you don't get any , change your products for steam shower installation or .....continue to use the Kerdi fix .
 

Eurob

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johnfrwhipple said:
I only include Noble Company And Kerdi because they are the only two companies that can meet the High Use Shower Specification fro steam showers....

Noble Seal TS and Kerdi DS - only two options in my opinion to build a steam shower.


Like I said . You look at it in the wrong direction .

http://www.noblecompany.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=qmdwFYNeXZ8%3D&tabid=66&mid=445

Answer : First page , 2.Materials , 2.3Waterproof sealant states :

Quote : " 2.3 WATERPROOF SEALANT:
Use NobleSealant 150 to seam sheets, seal penetrations (i.e., pipes, wire), drains, and terminal edges. "

Is that enough for you ?
 

Eurob

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johnfrwhipple said:
It's nice to see Schluter's Social Media Efforts show casing flood test. Yesterday while viewing Schluter's Face Book page they featured a barrier free shower flood test. Now if we could only get the men with the common brain to do a better job flood testing there work - I would be happy. If your tile man skips a flood test - he is breaking the building code of 98% of North America. If he does he or she is a tile hack. Flood test every shower - Every time. Three days is best.


So , you are always checking them and make sure the showers or the steam showers don't leak , right ? Someone -- let's call them pros for now -- can not rely on their experience of redoing same operations , same materials , same techniques over and over without proper flooding of the showers . Even if they do , the specific requirement from codes for flooding are not even close to be enough . It needs 3 days or 72 hours .

Flood testing is a must ,not only in North America but world wide , right ?
 

Eurob

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johnfrwhipple said:
Close - Keep trying...

Open - maybe we should vote for it .


Direct quote from

http://www.schluter.com/7360.aspx


'' The Schluter®-Shower System is a bonded waterproofing system for tiled showers, steam showers, and bathtub surrounds. It is an integrated family of products that creates a sealed system to eliminate leaks and reduce the potential for efflorescence and mold growth. Schluter®-KERDI-SEAL-PS and -MV complement the Schluter®-Shower System by providing reliable solutions to address typical protrusions through the KERDI membrane, such as showerheads, tub spouts, steam inlets, and mixing valves. ''


'' Schluter®-KERDI-SEAL-PS and -MV eliminate the use of sealant at specified protrusions for clean and simple application. ''
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I say I did enough;)
 
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Vegas_sparky

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I learned a new lesson yesterday.

Never bring in your heat sink from outside and install without first warming it up when the temperature is below 10 degrees Celsius.

The reason is the metal is cold and once warm it will sweat. This moisture does not allow a good bond with the peel and stick strip on the LED lights.

I had my heat gun with me so I could warm up the heat sink and then re-installed the LED lights. But lesson learned and not checking this could lead to the LED's lights falling off your heat sink.... Not a good idea with w Kerdi LED Shower Niche Design.

Here is a look at latest two Kerdi LED Shower Light Niches. Both are top lit designs. The diffusers are still not in position when I took this photo.

Kerdi+Shower+Light+Niche+Check.jpg


Kerdi LED Shower Light Niches: Photo Source - Page

I agree, those look fantastic, John. I'm sure the light is much more uniform in person. Cameras tend to show hotspots with LED lighting.

What kind of controllers do you use? There's a lot of cool stuff coming out that is either Bluetooth, or WiFi enabled. I use line voltage switching for basic on/off, and app based color controllers. The color/scene is changed with a wall keypad, or my phone.

Commercial controllers use a DMX network, but you can find high quality, standalone DMX controllers, which can be added to a larger system.
 

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We will be putting up the walls and getting ready for the actual build this coming up weekend. Right now we have the alcove opened up to the studs, and from the picture, you can see the 2x6 studs are not spaced evenly, so I will add 3 studs to the wider spaces to close the gap, helping to even the wall load. I will cut the drain vent and feed through new stud and then reattach. (don't mind the mess, its been cleaned up and drain is now centered)

Now for the choice of wall material. I'm leaning towards hardi and will do small sections at a time to make it easier to hang kerdi before drying out. I am also planning on using Versabond thinset (i've read this is easy to work with) to attach the tiles to the kerdi, the plan is to give the tiles a few weeks to set before grouting, thereby allowing the fillers to evaporate.

Can I use versabond as well to attach the kerdi to the hardibacker, or should I use the non-modified? Could I stick with the versabond and give it time to rest (same as what i plan to do with the tile?)

A question on the 8+9, do you use the 8+9 to attach the kerdi band to the seams, and then also paint the 8+9 over the seam? OR, do you use thinset to apply the kerdiband, and then use the ardex over the seam only?

John, on the other thread, you said not so good that the curb have a overhang, why not? what makes this not ideal?

thanks,
leophoto (27).jpg
 
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Loudgonzo

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John,

what are your thoughts on my approach above? Also, we'll be getting our tile soon, and are wanting the solid curb top, but you said not ideal?

thanks,
leo
 
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