I need help choosing new water softener

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SteveW

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OK - let me jump in here one more time with the "big picture."

Is anyone else puzzled by why this thread got brought back to life, and by someone with the email name "snickram" and who has not posted before, or since?

Seems like someone is trying to stir the pot.
 

Gary Slusser

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Steve, I'm not puzzled and I agree with it probably being pot stirring.

Standard high capacity resin is OK.
There are three types of resin, regular mesh (8 and 10% crosslinked), fine mesh and SST-60 and IIRC, two types of Zeolite.

Thanks for your stats on the Fleck twin, Not sure how you got your info, though.
And therein lies our problem. Frankly IMO you don't respect much of anything I say. That's what is with that as you ask at the bottom of this. I took the time to answer your questions and IMO, you really haven't answered mine, or at least a very important one. It's how much and what type of resin.

As an independent dealer, I have to rely on my self or my suppliers for info. They are not always available when needed so independent dealers learn this stuff. One of the best places to learn is from resin manufacturers. Check any of them and you'll find my figures and how I arrived at them. You once told me the softener in my picture used Sybron C-266 fine mesh resin. I used regular mesh for this.

You gave a couple of different avenues you could take according to salt dosage. Kinetico likewise can be set at different levels. Changes in the number of people using water is rarely a reason to alter valve settings here, though. Why would you want to change something if guests come over or the kids move out?
You are assuming the changes are for guests. They aren't. They are for different scenarios of family size, water quality and most importantly the frequency of regenerations and the length of time between regenerations. Another is that city water changes fairly frequently although I size for the highest hardness in the system.

Two systems could be used: either the 2100s or the 2060s (10" and 8" tanks respectively.
Now I can come up with the volume of resin as long as the tanks aren't packed bed (for others reading this... meaning full of resin with no freeboard).

The 2060 would be set on a disk 5 with a salt efficiency of 4622 gr/lb . The 2100 would be on a disk 4 at 4591 gr/lb.

The 2060 would regenerate every 251 gallons of service flow and use 2.7 lb of salt. The 2100 would do that 425 gallons of service flow at 5.5 lb.
I don't know one of those model numbers from another.... yet the 2100 seems it would be a 1.5 cuft tank. So what dictates what disk you use?

But if you compare your best effeciency with the Fleck twin at 3411 gr/lb and Kineticos lesser choice of 4591 gr/lb that make a 1180 gr for every pound of salt. at 100 lb (two bags) that would be 118000 grains removed difference. (around 74%) 7000 grains equals approximately one pound. So for every two bags of salt that would be 16+ pounds of dissolved rock more removed at the same cost of salt. That sounds pretty signifiacant to me.
Yes I agree but we aren't comparing the same resin are we? I'm using regular mesh, what are you using and what are your figures with regular mesh resin?

But really GARY you have got to get that chip off your shoulder. It doesn't make you appear very professional. You mustn't take things so personally and stoop to name calling. What is that?
I define "professional" as you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours and we'll both go along to get along.

I'm proud that I am not "professional". I've been in sales since 1980 and have never been "professional", and at my age, I have no desire to change. I also don't have a need to change. My customers, 20-40 a month, and untold thousands of forum readers seem to like me for being me. ;)
 

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SteveW,

I agree with you. There were two statements made by this bogus snickram.

Purchase a new Kinetico and you'll get a ten year warranty and the best system on the planet.
I would like to have this warranty explained to me in full. Most of these ten year warranties cover things that would never go bad, such as the resin tank/s.

And if Kinetico's are overhyped then why are these used units still selling for so much?
I have never heard of used Kinetico's being for sale. But I can tell you why so many new ones are being sold. It's because of the Media Hype put out by the Franchiser and the crackerjack salesmen they hire. It has nothing to do with quality.

bob...
 

Gary Slusser

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Kinetico uses fine mesh resin only in packed bed models. So standard/regular mesh resin was being referred to. Those efficiency ratings used standard resins. Does that help?

The 2060 use 0.7 ft3 and the 2100 uses 1.5 ft3 of resin. I guess I didn't mention my point was an apples-to-apples comparison to level the playing field. Still the grains-per-pound of salt difference was significant.

Absolutely it helps. Thank you. It actually says that we are using the same brand of resin. And if that is the case, then that means that a Kinetico softener and one of mine in the same house on the same water and set up with the same salt dose gets the same grains per lb salt efficiency.

And if I were to measure the gpm of the drain line from yours, and if I used the same DLFC gpm and adjusted my control cycle positions to the same length of minutes run time, my softener would use the same amount of water per regeneration. So we'd have identical water use efficiency too. Especially since both softeners would have the same volume of the same resin in them.

I've been trying to tell you that for like 3 years!

Now I suppose you'll tell me I'm somehow wrong but... find out what resin manufacturer Kinetico uses and go find the manufacturer's spec sheet on that resin and show me where they say I'm wrong. Seriously, please do that.

Gary writes:
"And therein lies our problem. Frankly IMO you don't respect much of anything I say."

I'm sorry, where was the disrespect, Gary? I simply wondered where you got your info on valve capacities and functions, but I accepted it anyway. When it comes to respecting others, maybe a little introspection wouldn't hurt.
It has accumulated over the last 3 years. You accepted my figures because they were higher than Kinetico's but... you don't really believe me. Yes my figures were higher but, do they mean much to someone comparing buying a Kinetcio for $2000-4500 and my softener for <$1000? No they don't. You guys should give a lifetime warranty on the whole unit for what you charge people for it! Especially since the only difference is the non electric blow molded plastic Kinetico control valve! All the other components are the same I and most other dealers use/sell; for a lot less money.

I can tell you I sell at least one softener a week, and it's usually 2-3, that the prospective customer says they had Kinetico out BUT MY GOD! for that price! and the salesmen didn't know a thing about my questions about who makes your resin? Tanks? And the negative things about all other types of softeners!! WOW. So I did some research and found you Gary...

I gave you certified information from two third-party, independent testing organizations (NSF, WQA) and simply can't find those details on Fleck (or Clack) valves from those or any other non-bias sources. Naturally, if I said these results were from Kinetico HQs, then even I might consider them tweaked to look positive. Right?
You are playing with me now right? You can't not know that Autotrol, Clack, Erie and Fleck don't make softeners... You know they make control valves. See to me, that is disrespectful when we are supposed to be having an honest comparison. You've fallen back into your sales hype stuff.

The 2060 use 0.7 ft3 and the 2100 uses 1.5 ft3 of resin.
What is the constant service flow rating of .7 and 1.5 cuft of that standard/regular mesh resin?

We have charts that are used to determine optimum settings. Iron concentration can alter salt dosage to be more effective.
All the resin manufacturers have charts too, they are called spec sheets. And they probably use conservative figures but if I was willing to set the salt dose as low as you guys, I'd get the same capacity and salt efficiency from the same brand and volume of the same resin.... You don't believe that.

That's the bottom line to the people that buy from me.

You and others call me unprofessional because I demystify this stuff and tell people these things about other brands and how to fix their softeners rather than being dependent on a local dealer. I don't turn a blind eye and keep my mouth shut. I've been this way all my life since Cub Scouts in the mid 1950s and I'm quite proud of it. I don't take advantage of peoples' ignorance, I teach them how to help themselves when they need water treatment equipment or need to fix it.

Question Andy, why do you post on forums?

Gary writes: "I define "professional" as you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours and we'll both go along to get along."....
Another question Andy, in simple terms no flowery speech as you're prone to, what is your definition of "professional"; limit it to you and I, softener salesmen?
 

SteveW

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"Games People Play" --

SteveW,

I agree with you. There were two statements made by this bogus snickram.

I would like to have this warranty explained to me in full. Most of these ten year warranties cover things that would never go bad, such as the resin tank/s.

I have never heard of used Kinetico's being for sale. But I can tell you why so many new ones are being sold. It's because of the Media Hype put out by the Franchiser and the crackerjack salesmen they hire. It has nothing to do with quality.

bob...


Thanks for the support, Bob!

This whole transaction reminds me of one of my favorite books - called "Games People Play" and written by a psychiatrist named Eric Berne (if I recall correctly). In it, he describes a number of common patterns of behaviors humans have. One "game" is called "Let's You and Him Fight" and the idea is that the instigator of this somehow maneuvers two OTHER people to duke it out between themselves, and then stands back and watches the whole thing.

I don't have a clue who "snickram" is or whether he/she really is clever enough to have set up a "game" like this, but that's effectively what's happened to this thread.
 

Gary Slusser

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They are called trolls; he may have been trolling, as in fishing. But maybe not too. He may have simply found the thread in a search and replied honestly but in the defending Kinetico mode and Andy just loves that! and jumped on the opportunity. Another possibility is that they know each other.

It will be interesting to see how Andy answers my question of why he posts.
 
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Gary Slusser

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Oh but I do understand co and counter current brining and basically, the heal of non regenerated resin is pushed up to the top of the counter current brined bed and it's pushed down to the bottom of the co current regenerated bed.

That reduces the potential for hardness leakage in the upflow counter current brined softener but in reality, that's about the only difference. Basically the regenerated capacity per lb of salt used in the same volume of the same type of resin is very close with either co or counter current brining. Any salt savings is minimal OR many other softeners would be suing upflow counter current regeneration.

And now you've left but you didn't answer my other question! Why did I think you would do that?

Why do you post in DIYer forums when you always are telling guys to buy local and rely on "professional" dealers?

Which reminds me of my other question you didn't answer, what is your definition of "professional" in regards to softener salesmen like us?
 

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Selecting a Water Softener

OK - not sure how this forum works, but I've spent the past hour or so reading comments about how to choose a water softener.

In fact - I am the "little old lady" the salesmen are referencing and with my fixed income in retirement community need to be careful.

#1 - I do not like softened water . . . neither the taste or the slickness, but also don't want my new soaking tub to be ruined w/rust stains or clothing to be stained in washer.

#2 - from pictures in some of your replies, it seems my space may be limited and I believe there was a Culligan unit in my place previously.

My questions are as follows:

Can the customer ever regulate the amount of hardness in the water?

Do you HAVE to have extra faucets in order NOT to have soft water to drink?

Hopefully, someone will see this and answer before too long as I will be moving in soon.

No offense, but I prefer answers from folks who are experienced in installation & repair of water softeners rather than those with conflict of interest (salespeople)

PS - I got this link from the Indianapolis Star
 

SteveW

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I am not a pro or sales person - just a fairly handy homeowner that's installed 3 of his own Kenmore water softeners over the years and has learned how to maintain them.

The pros will warn you against some brands, like Kenmore, GE, etc - and these are the ones you most commonly see in retail stores. For someone who does not do their own maintenance, I agree with this - were I in your shoes, I would go with a Clack unit such as Gary S recommends. These can be bought through the internet,including from Gary himself (I don't know him personally, but I would buy from him if I were in the market right now), but I don't know if you also could find someone locally who sells and installs them. They have a reputation for reliability and easy "fixability."

Yes, you can regulate how "soft" the water is - some folks like to keep it just a little "hard" to avoid the slippery feeling. (I personally like that feeling - it tells me my skin is clean, not clogged with soap/hard water deposits - but that's just me.)

I personally have a hard-water line plumbed to my refrigerator, since I too don't really like the taste of machine-softened water. So - most of the water we drink plain comes from the fridge dispenser and is hard - but we use soft water out of the kitchen faucet for cooking and making coffee (and this way the coffeemaker doesn't get all limed up.)
 
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Exodus

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Yes, you can regulate how "soft" the water is - some folks like to keep it just a little "hard" to avoid the slippery feeling. (I personally like that feeling - it tells me my skin is clean, not clogged with soap/hard water deposits - but that's just me.)

I personally have a hard-water line plumbed to my refrigerator, since I too don't really like the taste of machine-softened water. So - most of the water we drink plain comes from the fridge dispenser and is hard - but we use soft water out of the kitchen faucet for cooking and making coffee (and this way the coffeemaker doesn't get all limed up.)

Funny, isn't it how we're programmed somehow re: personal taste - to me, that slippery, slimy feeling does not feel nearly as clean as when I hear my hair squeak because it's no longer coated with shampoo and/or a slick substance I already chose the fridge without water - so that's not an option :(

Anyway - thanks so much for your succinct, readable answer, I was getting really bogged down trying to digest the technical jargon. I did try to take notes on brands various posters recommended, but it became almost impossible when the whole thing seemed to turn so competitive! I very much agreed with whoever quoted Eric Berne - "lets you & him fight" - I felt like writing - OK, guys . . . play nice!

One other question:

It seems like (and I'm not there to measure) that the allocated space in the utility closet is only a little over 2' square - does that seem like a large enough place for both brine & resin tanks?!? Is it possible when people subscribe to a service like Culligan, their equipment takes less space?

Thought I was through asking questions, but it seems that the more thought I give this, the more doubtful I become. Am certainly open to opinions of others - just keep it simple, please - any number can play :D
 

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Clack WS 1

I agree with rdtompki, I purchased a Clack WS 1 from Ohio Pure Water Co and was pleased with their service. I'd not known much about the voodoo water softer machine in my basement but now I know just enough to be dangerous. I installed it myself and other than programing the computer brain, it was easy. Do it youself and save bigtime.
 

Exodus

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Water Softener Selection

I agree with rdtompki, I purchased a Clack WS 1 from Ohio Pure Water Co and was pleased with their service. I'd not known much about the voodoo water softer machine in my basement but now I know just enough to be dangerous. I installed it myself and other than programing the computer brain, it was easy. Do it youself and save bigtime.


Does anyone on this list know ANYTHING about Aqua Systems - they're in the midwest and seem to be growing fast. Their softener has an easily detached control valve that can be taken to their facility and exchanged for "less than the price of the first hour of a service call"!?! You do not have to use their salt to stay under warranty but they offer drive-thru service if you do. Prices seem comparable and they have won Angie's List awards. I'm interested in any input since I need to make a decision quickly here - rust is invading ! ! !
 

Gary Slusser

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I've looked at their site awhile back and know that you'll pay a premium price for something you may never use.

I take it you don't want to be a DIYer, you want to be tied to a local dealer right?

Ohio, do you mean they told what to program your control to? What problems did you have programming a Clack?
 

Exodus

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Water Softener Selection

I've looked at their site awhile back and know that you'll pay a premium price for something you may never use.

I take it you don't want to be a DIYer, you want to be tied to a local dealer right?

Ohio, do you mean they told what to program your control to? What problems did you have programming a Clack?


You're right - I'm retired & disabled and can't DIY. I'm hoping I "never use" their services again, but on the other hand . . . it means I've outlasted their warranty and that's not a bad thing! Thanks for your input!
 

Ohio

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Clack WS 1

Hi Gary, I knew nothing about softeners so this was all new to me. A lot of research later and I did it myself. Still, I found the set up of the valve sort of confusing. I called Ohio Pure Water Co and they walked me through the parts I didnt understand, such as setting the total capacity (64,000) and lbs. of salt (20) per regineration. My unit came pre-programed for 30,000 and 1 cubic foot of resin, and it showed only 900 gal until next regen. I knew something was wrong as I sized it at 64 and 2 cubic foot of resin. Now after a regen, with the correct settings, I get about 2000 gals. and it regen's about every 8 days. My hardness is 28. Now Im thinking of setting it so the brine tank fills 2 hrs. befor it regenerates. This is interesting and I thank everyone for the help.
 
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Gary Slusser

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You're right - I'm retired & disabled and can't DIY. I'm hoping I "never use" their services again, but on the other hand . . . it means I've outlasted their warranty and that's not a bad thing! Thanks for your input!
Now recall what you said about me... I've just read you other posts, I am in sales; but I have sold, installed and serviced all types of equipment for 21 years now, so who should know this stuff better? ;)

You will do better if you bought from me or someone else online and hired a plumber to install it. Their control valve is not industry standard, it is proprietary and... not being a DIYer, I doubt you can take their control valve off the resin tank and take it in for service so, you'll be totally dependent on them for all service. That's not where most folks want to be.
 

Ohio

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Clack WS1 Electronic 1 Inch Meter On Demand Control Valve Water Softener 64000 Grain Capacity, 2.0 cubic feet of high capacity resin. I have fill set to PRe (fill brine tank 2 hrs before regen), program is P1, capacity is 64x1000, regen is 20 lbs, next setting lists AURo, and then normal (as you cycle thru the display settings). I have 4 persons in home with an avg of 300 gal use per day. Our water is very hard with 28 gpg, but no notable iron content. Everything sound ok?
 

Gary Slusser

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You have left out a lot of the programming but what you have shown is mostly wrong. The Auto and Pre is right but the rest is not.

I get about one of their customers a week that contacts me for programming. I average one from other competitors about every 10-12 days. Ohio Pure Water and Quality Water Treatment are the two most common customer asking me for help with programming. Those and other of their customers should have bought from me. ;)

Call Ohio Pure Water and insist they give you new programming and confirm it for their version of a 2.0 cyft softener. Then post it and I'll give you my ideas. That includes both the dealer side and the consumer side. You might also make sure they are using the right DLFC for their size tank and type of resin and tell me what they are using.
 

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Well, thank you for your advice. I did check with them and they stated the settings are correct. They also said the Hi Capacity Softening Resin Specs can be found at http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/files/nelsencation.pdf

The DLFC for the 64000 grain model (2.o cu/ft) ..... is 3.5 gpm. What does DLFC stand for?

I have not had the water tested yet but I can fell a diffrence and our dishes are spot free now. As I mentioned before, with the above settings (only regen once - new install) the display told me it will soften aprox 2000 gal. before the next regen (last was 8 days between regen). Im sorry I didn't give detailed info on all settings, as you can see I am still learning. O, I forgot to tell you I am on city water http://www.cityofbellbrook.org/files for down/newsletters/2006 Water Quality Report.pdf

And, I read your SFR and salt dose page and boy am I stupid, I don't get it. I have read it 2 times. I think I am using too much salt but not sure. I will try again, and thank you for your help.

Thank you.
 
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