I am considering a new tank - need advice

[PeteHog]

Hi there,
just moved into the house about a year ago. Its a 4 bed 4 bath, with appartment over garage. I have a 1 hp pump with a 20 gal well-x-trol bladder tank. Don't know how old the equipment is, but the tank is still in good condition. There is quite some water useage (also need to fill pool and water the lawn), and I noticed the pump cycle is running very often. About a month ago, I had to have the pump control replaced, which set me back a bit over 300 dollars. Seemed quite high to me. The repair person suggested to have a secondary bladder tank installed, which will cut back the number of cycles 4 times and extend the pump live. He gave me an estimate for 1200 dollars, not specifying the type of tank. The quote seems high to me. I guess I could buy a new 80 gallon well-x-trol tank for about USD 500.00 and install it myself. My level of expertise is a bit more then beginner, but can use common sense. I was wondering if you could give me some good independant expert advise. 1. is it a good idea to have a secondary tank installed? Can I connect the 2 tanks with a T-connection right before the pressure switch? If so, how complex is this, is it a good idea to do this myself? 2. if I have somebody do this, what is a ball park range for material & labor? Then, should I also consider having a stronger pump installed at the same time? Thanks for your help.

 

[Speedbump]

Your well guy is a bit overpriced in my opinion. You can buy a 120 gallon Flexcon from me for $291.58 and install it just like you said. However I recommend a Cycle Stop Valve instead of the bigger or more tanks. It won't let your pump cycle when a gallon or more per minute is being used. It will also give you constant pressure in the home.

bob...

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bob NH]

Gallons Are Not All the Same

I think this is a case where it is important to be clear in the definitions.

PeteHog mentions an 80 gallon Well-X-Trol tank for $500.

Speedbump mentions a 120 gallon Flexon for $291.58.

Neither is clear whether they are talking about actual volume or "equivalent volume", but from previous threads I suspect that Bob (Speedbump) is talking about the PC-144 shown on his site, which is indicated as 44 gallons actual volume and 120 gallons "galvanized equivalent" volume.

When comparing bladder tanks, you should compare actual volume to actual volume; or equivalent volume at the same specified pressure range for both tanks.

It is not difficult to add a second tank in parallel. Just find a place to put a tee and connect the tank. You will want a union between the tank and the tee.

I have seen as many as six tanks connected together. It was not a good choice but was done before I saw the system.

 

[Speedbump]

Bob is right, I talk in gallons of equivelency because this was what the bladder tank did; was replace a galvanized tank. For many years they used the equivalent value. Then came the big box stores who like to make everything seem bigger and better. All the tank companies had to jump on board and put both values on their tank boxes. Now the equivalent value doesn't seem to appear so much. The tank manufacturers will be making all sorts of different sizes and nobody will know what they are talking about.

I will always size them the way mentioned above and won't pay any attention to what a homeowner says they have for a tank, because most of them don't have a clue anymore.

This also makes it easy for the unscrupulous installer to make the homeowner think he is getting something he is not.

Thank God for the Cycle Stop Valve. It takes a lot of the guess work out of buying a tank for the ill informed.

bob...

 

[Speedbump]

I forgot to mention. You said: I have a 1 hp pump with a 20 gal well-x-trol bladder tank. Don't know how old the equipment is, but the tank is still in good condition. There is quite some water useage (also need to fill pool and water the lawn), and I noticed the pump cycle is running very often.

A tank in good condition would not cycle a pump often. It may be in good condition on the outside, but the bladder on the inside is probably torn and the tank is probably waterlogged. If so, replace the tank and you will be back to normal.

bob...

 

[Bob NH]

Control Air in a Galvanized Tank

You can automate the air fill for a non-bladder tank if the tank has a port where you can insert a level switch (takes at least 1/2 NPT) that is within the range where you want maintain water level when the pump shuts off. You will get the same drawdown performance as with a properly precharged bladder tank.

Establish the pressure that you want to have at the level where the switch in inserted. Then connect a pressure switch with the level switch, using the following logic:

When the water level is above the control point AND the pressure is below the pressure for the control point, run the compressor.

Consider the case where the tank water level at which there is a port for a level switch corresponds to the desired water level at 40 psi in a tank operating between 30 and 50 psi. If the water raises the level switch when the pressure is 35 psi, the air compressor will come on until the pressure reaches 40 psi or a little more. It will add a little air every cycle until the pressure is 40 psi when the water reaches that level.

Those level switches are usually small reed switches so you will need a relay to operate the compressor.

You should use a pressure switch that has a narrow range around the control point. It should not overlap the pump switch range on either end.

 

[Raucina]

My thought was a reverse acting [mechanical] float switch, valve open on rise - air compressor with small tank, pressure regulated to desired pump cut in pressure. valve closes on water level fall, air fill. - no relays, contactors, and so -on. I think [havent looked at fittings on an actual one] that a standard tank air control will do just that, for about 20 dollars. They screw into the 1.25" hole at the correct level on the tank body. Some are for submersibles and others for jet pumps, I think the sub. variety is reverse acting. Is'nt that easier or am I missing an element here?

Or, if working with a gang of tanks, a simple solenoid valve and timer to add air each day, the last tank [?] with an air release float valve to keep any excess out of the house. THAT would not be a supercharge situation however, and would need some tinkering. Of course one can also go with the standard check valve, drain valve and schrader valve if feeding direct from a deep well - but these thoughts arise from a booster pump situation where such valving does not work.

 

[Speedbump]

Your trying to reinvent the wheel.

bob...

 

[Raucina]

Look what the Egyptians did without the wheel at all! Try to see the trees in spite of the forest....

 

[Speedbump]

They used logs. They were round too!

 

[PeteHog]

Thank you all for your feedback and help. Since my immediate goal is to reduce the number of cycles in order to enhance my pump life, I think the option which makes the most sense is to go with the cycle stop valve. My tank was inspected, its still good, its a WX 202 30/50 with a draw down of 6.8 g. I am looking at purchasing the CSV1 CSV1 1" 25 gpm valve with a 40psi setting. I probably need to come back with specific questions about installation.....

 

[Valveman]

Valveman

You are making a wise decision with the CSV140. I have the same size tank with a 60 PSI CSV1 and 50/70 pressure switch controlling a 2 HP 25 GPM pump. When I run everything at once (25 GPM) my pump uses 12.5 amps of power and drops to 5.5 amps of power when running my 3 GPM drip system in the garden. If your pump will do it, you could turn the pressure switch up to 40/60 and use a CSV1-50 valve. You will love the pressure. And if it does not work 100% as advertised, send it back. I couldn't say that if it didn't work, so don't let any less informed persons tell you it is a Ruse or Snake Oil, or talk you into bigger tanks that don't stop cycling just slow it down some.

 

[Valveman]

Valveman

The poly pipe is usually not a problem as it has a considerable fudge factor built in. But the insert fitting may need double clamping. When the CSV chokes the pump back to 1 GPM, the drop pipe or any pipe between the pump and the CSV, sees almost shut off head from the pump, which is what decreases the amp draw. Boosters and jets don't build nearly as much pressure as a sub, but whatever they can build will be seen between the pump and the CSV. The 2HP pump/motor is a 240V single phase with a 25S20-11 Grundfos pump. Grundfos pumps are great at dropping the brake horse power at low flow rates. I think they do lower amps at low flows better than other brands because they have a fixed stack of impellers locked to the shaft. Many other brands have floating stack impellers which drag on the diffuser with increased downthrust or back pressure and they don't drop in amps as good a fixed stack pumps. Many people don't realize that pumps will naturally unload with decreasing flow as much as they do. Most people falsly think that you have to have variable speed to get this kind of reduction in horse power. And the companies that make VFD's perpetuate this myth as much as possible.

 

[Speedbump]

Wow, they allow 120 psi. poly where you are. That is almost a crime. I'm not sure how much more pressure poly can handle beyond it's stated pressure rating, but using it is cutting it real close. I have never used poly to install a pump for any customers. I used Galvanized for many years until I was forced to switch to SCH 80 because everyone else was and I couldn't compete anymore. I did install 1-1/4" 160 psi.poly in my own well which happened to be inside a barn (no I didn't do it, the previous owner did) and I wanted to fix the big hole in the roof and loft. The rain had ruined a lot of the lofts plywood floor.

bob...

 

[Raucina]

They would permit you to hang the pump on a garden hose because there are no inspections outside of the interior plumbing in this county - 14,000 people in an area bigger than Rhode Island. Only got a building department 20 years ago. We do need a 50$ well permit, but if you want to bucket it out, thats your business. Big brother is not so big here yet in the mountains. I think the 160 psi pipe is just bomb proof down to about 250 feet. I cant imagine fooling with a coupling every 20 feet. There are many poor souls here with 1,000' wells, and they of course need the pro with a truck and pipe - although you can use the poly on the first part of the drop.

 

[Speedbump]

Wow, if it were warm there year round, I'de be moving. That's my kind of building dept.

bob...