I Am 99% Sure I know the Problem, But I Don't Want To Admit It.

Users who are viewing this thread

LLigetfa

DIYer, not in the trades
Messages
7,502
Reaction score
577
Points
113
Location
NW Ontario, Canada
Ubiquiti mFi with a current sensor could do it. It can be installed on a headless linux box.

http://www.ubnt.com/mfi
http://www.ubnt.com/mfi#csen
mfi-currentsensor1.jpg
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,626
Reaction score
1,301
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
11.4 to 11.7 amps should not be tripping the overload in a 1.5HP box. 11.9 amps are considered max amps and means the pump is putting out 100% flow. The air in the lines, leaking back, low pressure, are all symptoms of a hole in the pipe.

I suspect it is running at 11.7 amps for a while. Then when recirculating the same water in the well heats up the pump, the amps peg out for a few seconds and trips the overload.

Gonna have to pull it. Fix the hole in the pipe. Probably gonna need a new pump/motor if that one has been heated up enough to trip the overload a few times.
 

Daavewaard

Member
Messages
49
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
California
My Gould 4" 18GS15412 will be added to the landfill soon, unless there is a black market for unwanted and no longer loved submersible pumps somewhere.

Over the weekend I have looked at other brands online but I cannot use their sizing programs, as I really don't have an accurate record of well depth and water depth, etc. Would you replace the Gould with the identical item, or an equivalent from Grundfos or another manufacturer...or would you pull the old pump and re-measure everything...and then order a pump. The lady of the house will be unhappy-er if more time elapses without reliable water.

If you went with Grundfos or a (better) alternative, would anyone know the crossover id numbers or any easy way for me to find equivalent pumps from other manufacturers. Of course, with Grundfos I'm looking at cubic meters of water rather than gallons...a cubic meter of water is quite a bit!

So here's the Sunday morning question:

Best pump on the market regardless of price:

Best pump on the market in terms of value:


Thanks to everyone for the input/feedback thusfar. I'll report back when I find that danged hole/crack in my pipe.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,858
Reaction score
4,428
Points
113
Location
IL
Do you have a 5 inch casing? If you had a 4 inch casing, that would impact your choice.

If you find a leak in the drop pipe, your pump was blameless. If the pump failed after 11 years, that might be reasonable anyway. If you put in another 3-wire pump, I would look to replace the start capacitor in the control box; it has 11 years on it too.

You also want to state the depth to water if known. If you are not doing irrigation or other things that take large amounts of water flow, 18 GPM 1.5 HP pump seems a little like something for somebody with a shallower well but who needs a lot of water volume. Something like a 7 or 10 GPM 1 HP pump might be a better match. store.kgpowersystems.com/goulds.gs.notes.pdf has pump curves on Goulds submersibles. At 1.5 HP, depending on the water level, I would think a 10 or 13 GPM would be better than the 18 GPM.

Comparing pump curves would be a good way to match similar pumps, but if you get the same horsepower and GPM rating, I think those will be fairly equivalent pumps. However if you post more data, you will probably get some better suggestions on sizing whether you go with Goulds, Grundfos or whichever.

Not a pro-- just thoughts. I will not comment on the brand reputations.
 
Last edited:

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,626
Reaction score
1,301
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
When you don’t know anything about the well, try to go back with a pump as close to the old one as possible. Goulds is the only company with an 18 GPM pump. It would crossover to a 16S15-14 Grundfos, a 19 GPM in F&W brand, or a 20 GPM pump in most other makes.
 

Daavewaard

Member
Messages
49
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
California
When you don’t know anything about the well, try to go back with a pump as close to the old one as possible. Goulds is the only company with an 18 GPM pump. It would crossover to a 16S15-14 Grundfos, a 19 GPM in F&W brand, or a 20 GPM pump in most other makes.

Excellent info, exactly what I was hoping for. Thanks.

Even if I verified the well depth to the foot (near 290' I believe) then if I use the sizing charts based on house size and toilets, etc, I will still arrive near the 18 gallon pump requirement......so I think I'll go with that. I'm going to price all three...Gould, Grundfos and F&W...but I'm leaning toward Grundfos or F&W until I see the prices. Thanks again.

Question:

It seems that with Grundfos, there are 18 gpm pumps available both at 1 and 1 1/2 hp. Given that I am a bigger is always better thinker, why would one chose a 1 hp version?
 
Last edited:

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,626
Reaction score
1,301
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
It seems that with Grundfos, there are 18 gpm pumps available both at 1 and 1 1/2 hp. Given that I am a bigger is always better thinker, why would one chose a 1 hp version?

You wouldn't. Unless they have come out with something new I haven't seen, Grundfos makes 16 GPM and 25 GPM but no 18 GPM pumps.
 

Daavewaard

Member
Messages
49
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
California
You wouldn't. Unless they have come out with something new I haven't seen, Grundfos makes 16 GPM and 25 GPM but no 18 GPM pumps.

Of course, you are correct...I have 18 gpm stuck in my head so I will call that a typo of sorts. The grundfos is indeed 16 gpm...in both 1 and 1 1/2 hp versions.

Is it accurate to say any any submersible pump will come equipped with its own check valve or does that has to be specified? Thanks.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,858
Reaction score
4,428
Points
113
Location
IL
Question:

It seems that with Grundfos, there are 18 gpm pumps available both at 1 and 1 1/2 hp. Given that I am a bigger is always better thinker, why would one chose a 1 hp version?

As a general rule, you don't want your pump to run less than one minute from the time it kicks on at low pressure to when it kicks off. Longer would be even better. A more matched pump is recommended by pretty much everybody. In the absence of other info, presuming the initial choice was ideal makes sense. If you have more information, you might consider the kind of change I was suggesting might be better for you.

Centrifugal pumps of a given horsepower have different GPM ratings. The ones with more stages have a lower GPM rating, because the sweet area in the pump curves for those have higher head/pressure but less GPM. The GPM number is the nominal middle of the sweet area of the pump curve. There are pump curves available for each of the pumps you consider. They graph head/pressure vs GPM. For a given HP, expect the lower GPM pump to cost a little more due to the extra stages.

Part of deciding whether your existing pump was sized right would be to know how long your pump ran (minimum) before the trouble. If it only ran 30 seconds, and if your pressure tank was appropriate, your pump was pumping too fast. We also don't know how low your water gets. The amount of "head" required depends on your water level rather than your pump level. Yet even if your water level is higher usually, it would be good IMO if your pump would provide some pressure if the level dropped down to the pump. But the typical conditions would ideally be somewhere near the middle of the curve, and not into the dashed lines at the ends of the curve.

Of course CSV will make things run longer with a given size of pressure tank, but it does take more power. Whether that is significant, depends. There are various opinions. But everybody agrees that your pump should not greatly exceed your needs.

Do you have a piece of tubing running down your well bore? That is so that you can measure the water level. That would let you tune your selection. It would also let you know if you should be decreasing your water use before the pump actually runs dry. When you pull your pump, consider adding such tubing if you don't have it now. To use that, see how much pressure you you can pump that line up to. Divide the PSI by 0.4335 and that is the current depth of the water in your well.

I have never been in the pump business. I read the good stuff that has been written.
 

Daavewaard

Member
Messages
49
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
California
Of course CSV will make things run longer with a given size of pressure tank, but it does take more power. Whether that is significant, depends. There are various opinions. But everybody agrees that your pump should not greatly exceed your needs.

Do you have a piece of tubing running down your well bore? That is so that you can measure the water level. That would let you tune your selection. It would also let you know if you should be decreasing your water use before the pump actually runs dry. When you pull your pump, consider adding such tubing if you don't have it now. To use that, see how much pressure you you can pump that line up to. Divide the PSI by 0.4335 and that is the current depth of the water in your well.

I have never been in the pump business. I read the good stuff that has been written.

Since this event is allowing the installation of a CSV pside-kick, and you mention "more power" it seems 1 1/2 hp may be better than 1...just given that fact. Also, I am not fami;liar with the tube idea nor how it would be "pressurized"...could you refer me to a link for further info...sounds helpful.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,858
Reaction score
4,428
Points
113
Location
IL
http://pubs.usgs.gov/tm/1a1/pdf/GWPD13.pdf gets into it, but the process is simpler than it might first look. Run a flexible plastic tube down the well to near the pump. Force air into the tube with a tire pump etc. The air will push the water level in the tube down until air bubbles out. At that point, measure the pressure of the air up top. The difference between the water level at the bottom of the tube and the water level outside the tube will determine the air pressure. If you measure 100 PSI, the water depth down to the bottom of the flex tube is 231 ft. http://www.convertunits.com/from/foot+of+water/to/psi is one of several calculators available.

This one uses fewer words, but it is not that good of a description.
http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/pubs/331-428.pdf



http://www.wellpumpsandfilters.com/Sizing-Well-Pumps_ep_41.html talks about pump sizing. Note the part about efficiency.
 

Daavewaard

Member
Messages
49
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
California
A new issue has surfaced as we search for the best price on a Gould 18GS. I am looking at merely replacing the old pump/motor with the same item that is coming out of the well...and be done with it. However, looking at the Gould sizing chart raises questions:

Gould Chart.jpg

Assuming my well is as I have been told...290-300 feet deep (I know nothing about the water level)...how does a 1 1/2 hp pump work in a deep well like mine, given how I am reading the chart? My shut-off pressure is 60. Thanks.

Doesn't the chart indicate I need more horsepower? Please take a moment to explain for me and others with sizing issues. THANKS!!!
 
Last edited:

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,626
Reaction score
1,301
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
(I know nothing about the water level.

That is why you go back with as close to the same size pump as you can. You are right that if the water level is any deeper than 212’ that pump will not be able to build to 60 PSI and shut off. But if you put in a pump designed for a deeper well and the water level stays above 200’, that pump will destroy itself from upthrust.
 

Daavewaard

Member
Messages
49
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
California
If I do not take the time to pull the pump and actually measure the well...depth and water level at a minimum...I can merely replace the pump with whats been used for 30 years. The alternative is to pull the pump and measure but to be without reliable water until the measurement can be taken and a pump ordered. The clock is going tick tock all the while.

If the well has produced OK for 30+ years with 1 1/2 hp...can you assume it will for the foreseeable future?
 

Daavewaard

Member
Messages
49
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
California
Hi Guys!

I'll have an extensive update soon, as soon as I get my brand spanking new pump to turn on. Aaarrrgghh!

Please don't ask why it's taken so long...that'll be part of the update.

The issue is that the control box will not allow the new pump to start/run. As soon as power is applied the control box disables the power and ...this repeats after I reset the control box.

I have a new control box and will be swapping it in this afternoon, but the old one wasn't that old and had capacitors that measured within tolerance.

Here's the real issue for me: I spent a lot of time ensuring the electrical connections at the pump were watertight...using a 3M product made for that purpose. One thing I did not do is actually test the watertightness of those connections before sending the pump down into the well.

Could someone explain what would happen if one or more electrical connections at the pump was wet (which I doubt)?

Can I bypass the control box and send 220v directly to the pump to see if it will turn on...til I see water...and then shut off the power?

Thanks!
 
Last edited:

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,858
Reaction score
4,428
Points
113
Location
IL
Can I bypass the control box and send 220v directly to the pump to see if it will turn on...til I see water...and then shut off the power?
Not if you have a 1 phase 3 wire pump. If you have that, then you need the controller to connect the capacitor to the (typically) red wire initially to start the motor. Then the capacitor gets disconnected. I guess you could do that manually, but that would be trickier.huge2.png You can measure resistances between wires. That would check for open circuits. One path might be 1 to 3 ohms plus wire resistance and one might be 5 to 10 ohms... depending on HP...

I doubt that leakage at a splice would do that, but you could test for that. Measure resistance of the wires to a ground (not an electrical ground, but something connected well to ground.) I don't have a number for you as to what is normal, but I would say 50Kohm or less is not good, but still unlikely to cause your symptom. 1 Megohm or more would be good. Make sure there is no voltage present before trying to read ohms!
 
Last edited:

Daavewaard

Member
Messages
49
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
California
I switched out the control box this afternoon and got a surprise I did not expect. I was able to measure that the pump was drawing 10.4 amps, which seemed too high....a Gould 18gs15412C...but alas...not one drop of water spurted from my test line directed onto the ground to flush the system. My wife...frantic and almost in tears called a well company we have used in the past...

The fellow on the phone concluded after listening to my story that I had installed the pump wrong. He "expertly" concluded that having attached my new pump to a threaded 1 1/4" PVC fitting that was glued to 20 feet of schedule 40 PVC created a situation where obviously the fitting broke...and I could have a pump hanging loose in my well. That would explain why the pump could be running but no water where I was standing.

I have read exhaustively so I know there are some successful glued schedule 40 pvc wells out there...like mine for the last 30 years. Sure, schedule 80 or even 120 would be "better"....

So...since there is no water I am pulling everything up again. Late in the Friday afternoon I called around looking for schedule 80 belled threaded...and there is none I've found in my area. So...shipping it in from somewhere is one option. Another delay. One supplier said rather than schedule 80 PVC, with all those connectors, he'd strongly suggest schedule 40 poly.

Aaaarrgghh! as they say. I don't mean to start this poly vs. PVC again, but if my brand new pump torqued hard and quick enough to snap a 1 1/4" PVC fitting wouldn't it wreck a barbed fitting hose clamped to some poly??? I'd spend the money on schedule 80 threaded if I could only get my hands on some.

Done venting for now. I need a bath. Not gonna happen tonight.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,858
Reaction score
4,428
Points
113
Location
IL
I switched out the control box this afternoon and got a surprise I did not expect. I was able to measure that the pump was drawing 10.4 amps, which seemed too high....a Gould 18gs15412C...but alas...not one drop of water spurted from my test line directed onto the ground to flush the system. My wife...frantic and almost in tears called a well company we have used in the past...

The fellow on the phone concluded after listening to my story that I had installed the pump wrong. He "expertly" concluded that having attached my new pump to a threaded 1 1/4" PVC fitting that was glued to 20 feet of schedule 40 PVC created a situation where obviously the fitting broke...and I could have a pump hanging loose in my well. That would explain why the pump could be running but no water where I was standing.

I have read exhaustively so I know there are some successful glued schedule 40 pvc wells out there...like mine for the last 30 years. Sure, schedule 80 or even 120 would be "better"....

10.4 amps with a 1.5 HP pump? That's not high. About 10.6 amps would be normal I think.

How far down is your pump set? Threaded schedule 80 with stainless steel couplers might be more readily available.
 

Daavewaard

Member
Messages
49
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
California
Thanks for the feedback I don't quite get the ratings...the id tag states that the maximum amps is 9.1.

The pump is set at 205 feet.

It was late this afternoon when we started calling around, but the three places we thought would be most likely to have threaded 80 did not...slip/glue.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks