Hydro Pneumatic to CSV setup

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by joshfish, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. joshfish

    joshfish New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Tacoma Washington
    I am considering moving from my existing hydro pneumatic to a CSV setup and have some questions.

    My existing setup is a submersed pump at approx 40 (forty) feet deep, and a retention tank. Its just my home, 2 bathrooms, washer, my wife and 2 kids. No irrigation, nothing else in the system. The retention tank is inside the house next to the HWT with the pressure switch and a shut off.

    I am in the process of getting all the detailed information about the well, the pump and the tank from the well company who has been servicing the well for the last 35 years prior to my purchasing the property. If you need any of these particulars hopefully ill have them in a few days.

    The reason I am considering the switch is this. Since I have owned the house I have been unsatisfied with the water system. The poor pressure, the fluctuations in pressure and especially the damn noise from air volume control. And finally, the retention tank has two leaks in the side where the wall of the tank seems to have simply rotted away.

    At this point, before I move forward, if I pull the tank and replace it with a CSV setup. Will I have to modify the existing well head setup? Specifically the bleeder orifice and the schrader on the check valve?

    Thanks in advance, let me know if there are any other details I can add to help.


    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2013
  2. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,897
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Pulling a pump that is a mere 40 feet deep to remove the bleeder is not a daunting task. You should remove the checkvalve at the tank.
  3. joshfish

    joshfish New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Tacoma Washington
    Im not so much concerned with pulling the pump, I feel I can get it figured out. Ive never done it, however I am pretty handy. I just want to make sure that if I install a PSIde-kick / CSV setup in the house I install or replace all the appropriate fittings outside as well.

    Still trying to find out what exact pump I have in the ground...
  4. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    If you plug the bleeder orifice that is about 5’ down in the well, there is no problem replacing that big tank with a Pside-Kick kit and the 4.5 gallon tank. Just make sure you don’t have an air over water type tank for a reason. That kind of system is usually only used when you have iron or sulfur in the water. Mixing air with the water helps eliminate the iron and the sulfur smell if you have those things in your water. If you have iron and sulfur and you change out to a bladder style tank, you may start having smelly water.
  5. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    883
    Location:
    ct
    We also see bleeders and air releases here Ct where trenches aren't deep enough to prevent freezing
  6. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Yeah that would be another good reason.
  7. joshfish

    joshfish New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Tacoma Washington
    Not so much a problem with freezing where I live.

    News from the well company.

    Tank was replaced in 2002, with a new AVC

    Service call in Feb 2007, stating "tank in house, water logged. pump on 6x 1 1/4 well seal outside in meter box on poly? snifter valve leaking water, pump is showing wear." AVC replaced

    Pump was replaced in May 2007, the hand writing on the invoice states, "3/4HP 10GPM Red Jacket". Some google-ing brought me to some "Red Jacket" brand pumps, however I havent gotten very far with info regarding them. Any thoughts on this pump?

    March 2009 AVC replaced ($160!!! OMFG)

    Jan 2011 - Im the new home owner and I call due to air in the lines. $71 gets me a service call, the tech "cycles the tank to bleed air from system". A month later im back with air blasting out of all the faucets scaring my kids when its time to brush their teeth. ANOTHER service call and $190 later and a new AVC.

    its at this point I took to the internet trying to learn more about wells. I felt every time the pump turned on it was burping entirely too much air into the system. We would essentially hear the hiss from the AVC continuously, all day long. The AVC would let the air out fast enough that the water never got down to the outlet. However so much air would come in at every cycle that the 80 gal tank never contained more than 1/4 full water.

    In the summer of 2012 I replaced the service line from the well head to the tank with new 1.25" poly, along with the manifold to the tank in the picture. I suspected water leaking somewhere in the line between the well and the house, partially at the advice of the well company, although I did the work myself this time.
  8. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    883
    Location:
    ct
    Labor and materials to change the AVC $190.00? Sounds more than than fair to me as long as the job was done right the first time.

    I have seen plumbers install these tanks so that the inlet is lower than the outlet which then causes the problem of air in the faucets.
  9. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,897
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    The line is only supposed to drain back as far as the bleeder but from what you describe, I'd say the checkvalve in the pump is not holding and it is draining back all the way giving you way too much air to get rid of.
  10. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    The Pside-Kick kit with the 4.5 gallon tank will work great with that pump. The little tank will clear up a lot of space in the utility room, and the CSV1A will deliver great constant pressure to everyone in the house. But you will have to get the bleeder plugged or the check valve fixed so the air can no longer get into the system. You can try to just remove the above ground check valve with the schrader valve, but if the water still leaks back, the air problem will have to be fixed. Of course the air problem needs to be fixed anyway, and this is a good way to do it.
  11. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,897
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    The checkvalve in the pump seals better if it has full line pressure pushing against it. There is a chance it will seal once the bleeder and snifter are removed.
  12. joshfish

    joshfish New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Tacoma Washington
    So I ordered a Pside-kick kit with the CSV1A, the 4.4gal tank and all the other goodies. Should be here monday afternoon. Only 5 more days of this leaking tank!

    here are a few pics of my well head,

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    is there anything I need to know, or any pointers before I start in on this thing? Should I remove that check valve all together? What will I expect as far as the bleeder down line and how to cap it? The head appears to be bolted to the top of the sleeve, is this a flange or a compression type setup?

    Thanks to all for the input and advice, im glad I decided to give the CSV a try and cant wait to install it next weekend.
  13. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,897
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    I would try removing the checkvalve/snifter up top and see if the checkvalve in the pump holds. If the bleeder is of good quality it might hold up to the pressure and simply stay closed. If not, then you will have to uncap the well and pull it.

    That well seal has a rubber compression seal. DO NOT completely remove the bolts otherwise the bottom plate could fall down the well and prevent you from ever pulling the pump.
  14. joshfish

    joshfish New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Tacoma Washington
    what might that 3/8" hose be on the top left portion, heading out into the ground?
  15. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,897
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    That is a vent line. Because the well seal is below grade, it needs to be sealed and thus needs a vent to be raised up above grade.
  16. joshfish

    joshfish New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Tacoma Washington
    at this very moment im in the middle of this project.

    so far I have pulled the upper check valve and replaced it with straight pipe. Tightened everything down, turned on the pump, listened to burp of air through the system. The line will not remain pressurized, losing pressure immediately after cut out. Bad checkvalve in the pump!? How should I proceed!? :confused:
  17. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,897
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Pull the pump and install a checkvalve on the outlet of it. If you don't want to pull it all the way out, lift it high enough to remove the bleeder and install the checkvalve in its stead.
  18. joshfish

    joshfish New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Tacoma Washington
    ohhhh thanks heavens, I knew you would be here!

    I want to do it right, its my own well and would rather curse the well silly today than cut a corner and curse myself later.

    Would pulling the pump (its only at 40' per past work orders) and installing a new check valve on top of the pump hold sufficiently? Ill also remove the snifter while im in there.
  19. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,897
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    To do it right, I would use brass or SS and install it on the pump outlet. Best to match the type of metal, so if the pump outlet is SS, use SS.

    Installing it at the top, under the pitless is not a mortal sin. If ever there was a leak in the line, there is no possibility of contaminated ground water getting in but a leak could go undetected causing the pump to run constantly. If ever that were to happen, it can heat the water hot enough that if you have a PVC well casing, the casing could collapse.
  20. joshfish

    joshfish New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Tacoma Washington
    Ive got the cap loose, and hoisted up about 36". First 10' is 1.25" steel, im doing this by myself and I dont know how im going to get it back in.

    The well casing is steel as well, 6"
Similar Threads: Hydro Pneumatic
Forum Title Date
Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog Convert bladder tank to hydro-pneumatic? May 13, 2014
Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog Rust in Hydropneumatic Pressure Tank Feb 18, 2014
Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog Hydro Pneumatic Tank, Low Water Pressure Oct 30, 2012
Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog Myers Hydropneumatic Pump Tank not kicking on Jun 5, 2010
Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog Hydro-pneumatic vs. captive air pressure tank Sep 1, 2009

Share This Page