How's my plumber doing?

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Terry

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I get what you mean, not even a phone call?

When my dad died, it disrupted all of our lives. We stayed up quite late telling stories about my father Melvin and raiding the wine cabinet.
They were wonderful stories, about who he was, what he had done, and how much we loved him.
 

SteveW

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Am I seeing this right - the lower joint on the ell in the bottom photo is not soldered at all?
 

hj

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quote;
Insurance: check, so am I
In the phone book: check so am I
Licensed: check so am I
A+ BBB rating: check NOT I
Referred by two other business owners I know: check , who knows where you got my name.
Master plumber: no.
If your state does NOT have a master plumber classification, mine and many others do not, the question is irrelevent. IF it does have one, then you CANNOT operate a business unless you, or a "designated person" in your company, are one.
I answer my own phone, but when I had an answering service, they ONLY took your name and number so I could call you back. I have never done a no show, and would only do it if the customer gave the appearance that he was going to be more "high maintenance" than I wanted to deal with. I usually weed those customers out with a high bid price.

second quote; I can't see why you'd ever hire a plumber

Spoken like a true farmer. They have NEVER seen any job they could not do themselves.
 
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Augusta

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HJ: quote;
Insurance: check, so am I
In the phone book: check so am I
Licensed: check so am I
A+ BBB rating: check NOT I
Referred by two other business owners I know: check , who knows where you got my name.
Master plumber: no.
If your state does NOT have a master plumber classification, mine and many others do not, the question is irrelevent. IF it does have one, then you CANNOT operate a business unless you, or a "designated person" in your company, are one.
I answer my own phone, but when I had an answering service, they ONLY took your name and number so I could call you back. I have never done a no show, and would only do it if the customer gave the appearance that he was going to be more "high maintenance" than I wanted to deal with. I usually weed those customers out with a high bid price.

Yes, Georgia requires a licensed master plumber, and he may have workers under him. I've only ever had one master plumber come to my home, and that was to give me an estimate on what it would cost to do the plumbing on my new construction, 3 story, 6,000 sq ft home prior to ground breaking. He also personally roughed it in with a couple of helpers. Didn't see him anymore during construction after that point, and it was right at that point where many plumbing issues started popping up (his lessor experienced guys finishing the job).

Same concept here on this relatively inexpensive job. You can call a plumbing company with a master plumber "running" it, but you'll almost never get the master plumber to come out on a job that's not his bread and butter. In Augusta, master plumbers stick to the new construction bids and rough ins. I mentioned "master plumber: no" so that you'd know the head hancho isn't the one doing the work on this particular job - his lessor experienced guys are. Not only that, the guys who gain experience end up "supervising" (aka "journeymen") the even lessor experienced guys (aka apprentices). That's how small plumbing companies get bigger. Not better. Just bigger.

Same scenario in real estate. All active licensed real estate agents in the USA work for a real estate Broker. The Real Estate Broker is synonymous to the Master Plumber. Then Brokers hire agents to work for them. Often times, those agents are complete screw ups, and the Broker spends his time fixing and organizing his agents' messes. Some Brokers don't even do that much. As long as they're turning a profit and their E&O insurance isn't taking too much of a hit, they could care less about much anything else. I'm sure many Master Plumbers operate the same way: screw quality - how much money are we making?

HJ: I have never done a no show, and would only do it if...

That would be a down right cowardly thing to do (tell him you'll do it and then run and hide). A real man would straight up tell this potential customer that he's simply not a good fit, and would promptly recommend another person who may be interested in helping him (like a competitor you don't like). The "high bid" technique is a little less cowardly, but I personally wouldn't pull that one either. If you're hinting that I may have been perceived as "high maintenance" and deserved to be left hanging, I suppose we'll see on Monday if they call and apologize. This is a vacant house where the plumber has the code to get in. It's a clear scope job, and I won't even be there for the entire duration of the repair (nor will anyone else from my side). The job will be corporate paid. My expectation is that it does not leak (for some plumbers that is a high expectation), that it's done to code and manufacturer specs. I didn't even ask them to pull a permit (since I really have no idea if this repair qualifies) although I did ask them if pulling a permit was part of the plan (uh oh, does this make me high maintenance because I like to be informed to make sure I don't end up with 3 stooges crew #3?). Not my idea of high maintenance for the delicate flower plumber. I certainly won't be calling them back to follow up. I honestly think they, like most everyone else in this town, are in over their heads, and just can't efficiently and professionally manage their business. Master Plumbers don't necessarily make for good business men. Even with a good business man running the show, good workers are very hard to find, and even harder to keep.
 
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hj

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IF the master plumber has a "crew", he will SELDOM be out in the field doing the work. In fact, when I was an apprentice, I seldom did anything except the "bread and butter" jobs, because I was busy checking the journeymen on THEIR jobs. Just because someone is NOT a master plumber does not mitigate their abilities, they may just NOT intend to EVER have their own companies and therefore do not need that license. I said I would NEVER want my own company after 25 years of having run one for someone else, and I kept my promise until the union in this area forced me to do so 35 years ago.
 

Cookie

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In my RE office we have a list of service people/companies we use for various things. The most important business we always need and rely on is that of the: plumbers. We need the plumbers. I interviewed a couple of the plumbers on the list and they didn't particularly strike me as the best, one was a master plumber, I eliminated his name from the list. As well as a couple others who hit the wrong chord when I spoke to work they had done elsewhere. I got 3 really great plumber businesses, 2 great electricians and a very very short list of home inspectors. Your office should have a list of the needed professionals.

By the way, I got to hire someone to answer our phones and he is great eye-candy. :) ( he can say all the right things, " you look very nice today cookie") he was hired.
 
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Augusta

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IF the master plumber has a "crew", he will SELDOM be out in the field doing the work. In fact, when I was an apprentice, I seldom did anything except the "bread and butter" jobs, because I was busy checking the journeymen on THEIR jobs. Just because someone is NOT a master plumber does not mitigate their abilities, they may just NOT intend to EVER have their own companies and therefore do not need that license. I said I would NEVER want my own company after 25 years of having run one for someone else, and I kept my promise until the union in this area forced me to do so 35 years ago.

Yes, you agree and help make my point. The master plumber is seldom out in the field doing the work. Ok, now we've got one less experienced guy out there when dealing with the high and mighty plumbing company. Now we're left with Journeymen and apprentices. Even worse, you admit, at least with your experience with licensed Plumbing Companies, is that the apprentice was "checking the journeymen on THEIR jobs." How on earth do you expect Ian ;-) to have faith in plumbing companies when you help support his disapproval of the plumbing companies when you admit that as an apprentice (the lowest of the chain) you were busy checking the journeymen jobs above you?

Couldn't one make the same argument that just because a handyman/DIY isn't a master plumber, this does not mitigate the abilities of the handyman/DIY? Or does that argument only apply where it's convenient?

"because I was busy checking the journeymen on THEIR jobs." Spoken like a true farmer. They have NEVER seen any job they could not do themselves. Sound familiar?
 

Augusta

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lots of talk. "This could go on forever" or until you feel you've made all your points. The less said the better. It helps put you into the category known as "desirable customers".

On a certain level I agree with you, especially if we apply it to you. Let's see, I signed up years ago on this site with a whopping 39 posts. You are at 2,010 posts and climbing, giving input into threads that really don't add to the discussion. Was your post even necessary? So I say to you: Read more, post less, ignore the threads you are not interested in, and you'll be in the category known as "more desirable posters." Good day.
 

Terry

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I think Augusta may have just had a string of bad luck with contractors. That can happen to anyone.
The general rule of thumb is to take a middle price, eliminating the top dollar guy, and the low ballers.
Somewhere in the middle you normally find guys that are making a living doing what they love.

How many times have I heard;

"After talking to several plumbers, I like "your" knowledge" of my problem, and the other guys prices. I would love you to do the work, at his prices."

I laugh and say no. One of the reasons I sound knowledgeable, is that I already know what needs to be done, and what can happen. Often the low ball price guy isn't providing a job that meets code, or with parts that will last. Many times on jobs I have lost, the homeowner later said that the winning contractor hit them over and over again with "change orders" that brought the price up to my original quote. Well duh. If you add up all the things required for a complete job, that's what it comes to.

I would say that it's rare that I hear about a plumbing business, one that has been around a while, that can't get a simple job done like the one picture above.
Any first year apprentice could have done a fine job. The reason so many posts are making fun of the pictures, is that it looks like a complete novice was doing the work.
They look like a bad first try at plumbing.
I can't imagine any plumbing company in the Seattle area that would do work like that. I realize that it's Georgia, but come on. I know there must be plenty of qualified workers there. They did rebuild after the civil war didn't they? And they make TOTO toilets there, so someone must know what they are doing.

A lot of shops in Seattle are charging double what I charge. They offer senior discounts and coupons, but even with those discounts, they are far, far more money then what I'm charging.
The guys doing it for less, do they have have a business license and insurance?
 
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Furd

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IF the master plumber has a "crew", he will SELDOM be out in the field doing the work. In fact, when I was an apprentice, I seldom did anything except the "bread and butter" jobs, because I was busy checking the journeymen on THEIR jobs. Just because someone is NOT a master plumber does not mitigate their abilities, they may just NOT intend to EVER have their own companies and therefore do not need that license. I said I would NEVER want my own company after 25 years of having run one for someone else, and I kept my promise until the union in this area forced me to do so 35 years ago.
How old are you, HJ? Twenty-five years running someone else's company and thirty five years running your own company adds up to sixty years. Ignoring the time spent initially learning the craft before running that other person's company you must be eighty years old or close to it. Or did you start your apprenticeship when you were five years old?
 

Terry

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hj is very old, and knows how to do the old school plumbing that many of the new guys only see if they do service work.
That's why his avatar that I made for him is as old as the Grand Canyon.
He's that old.

image.php
 

Ballvalve

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The point is you cannot expect the "Master" of the business - and he should be 50 to 80 years old to deserve that title- to be soldering pipe on a job. Or pulling wire, or pounding nails.

But give that guy the three stooges, a whip, and a folding chair to sit by the tub, and you'll get a fine bit of work done.

And about money - When they say "I really want your work but the other guy is 800 bucks cheaper" AND you like the customer, I would toss him some discount [ not 800 bucks] so he can justify the extra cost to his wife and put a little feather in his hat. Usually end up with a quick and happy project.
 

Furd

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hj is very old, and knows how to do the old school plumbing that many of the new guys only see if they do service work.

I know he is old, he has knowledge of things I've only seen in books and I'm no kid. I'm quite certain that HJ has forgotten more about plumbing (and probably a whole lot of other topics) than I will ever know. I just wonder why an "elder statesman" of the craft is still humping water heaters and cast iron soil pipe when he should be enjoying his retirement, or at the least taking a completely supervisory approach to work.
 

Terry

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Last week on Halloween, I talked to an real estate agent that was asking if I do side jobs. She always hired her workers on the side. I laughed and said I owned the company and didn't do side jobs. So she then asks if anyone that worked for me did side jobs. What? is this for real? No, we don't do side jobs. So she said she only wanted guys that worked on weekends on the side. What? Weekends are for the family and a break from working 9-5 Monday thru Friday. I didn't bother giving her my card.
 

Cookie

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Not here, I work all days, all hours, all week, always trying to make ends meet. I appreciate jobs on the side, even if on the weekend. I am sure, someone would had appreciated the extra money especially, if they got little kids and trying to get by. I always try to help someone out.
 

Terry

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Cookie,
When a someone goes to a home "on the side" and starts working with plumbing, then they also have no insurance.
For example, my son Jamie borrowed one of my work vans to do a painting job in Tacoma, fell off the roof and fractured his orbital eye socket, arm and ribs. He had a pretty severe concussion too.

This was years ago.
Lesson learned.
 
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Cookie

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That is different than my job because I am hired by them while on the job with their company, but when not doing work for them on their dime, then the dime is mine. Understand?

So sorry to hear about Jamie. Hope all went well for him.
 
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Cookie

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Didn't his health insurance cover his injuries ?

I was working for a major newspaper and on the side I took a small assignment which in the crowd of people and their throes of anger over those siding with legal abortions, I got pushed and shoved but the biggest injury was I got punched in the nose. :) I can smile now...

But, my health insurance paid even though it was freelance work.
 

Jadnashua

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When working on a job, and not 'on the side', if you are injured, you DON'T use your insurance, your company's workmans' comp pays for it AND often pays your salary while you are out of work, you do NOT rely on your individual (even if company provided) health insurance. There is a BIG difference between one of these side jobs and one contracted through a viable company. Plus, the liability is also pushed onto the individual verses the company, and, if also done without a valid license or permit, often illegal. So, say a journeyman, without the master plumber's acceptance of liability for the job, essentially, you are getting an unlicensed job done without potential oversight from either an inspector, or the license holder. Yes, it can often work out, but it can be really ugly if it doesn't.
 
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