How to best control well pump and cistern

Users who are viewing this thread

Zef_66

New Member
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Williamsport, Pennsylvania
Greetings!

So I am just getting started building a house. The first thing to go in was the well. We will have electricity, but not until the house is well under way. So I have been thinking about installing a water tank to pump water into and use by gravity until the house is complete. When everything is done, we can use the water from the tank if the electricity goes out without having to run a generator all the time. So I have attached a picture of a rough sketch of my situation. I have a 2 wire 3/4hp pump, 230V pump. I will be running 1" 160psi black poly line from the pump to the water tank, and back down to a yard hydrant. I can handle all that.

But what I am unsure about is how to best control the well pump. I know I will be using a float of some sort. But do I run 8 or 10 ga wire, 230VAC all the way up the hill to the tank and allow the float to break the connection that way? Or do I use a transformer to step down voltage from 120VAC to 12VAC or 24VAC, run 12ga stranded wire up the hill to a float switch, and back down to a relay to control the 230V for the pump? Which is the best and cheapest way to get this done?

Thanks!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,796
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
I presume the breaker box is in the house. More than one way. I would be leaning toward a relay at the house, and controlling that with 120 VAC or 240 VAC switched at the tank. The other one I would look at is having 24 vac relay at the house switched at the tank.
 

Zef_66

New Member
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Williamsport, Pennsylvania
Thanks, those are the two options I was looking at as well. But I'm leaning more towards the 24V relay option at the breaker, switched at the tank. I think I could run smaller wiring and be more cost effective. Yes, there would be more of a voltage drop with smaller wiring, but if I am just controlling a relay, I don't think that would be as much of an issue. If I was running the power for the well pump all the way to the tank to be switched, then back to the pump, I would want to run larger wire so I wouldn't have as much voltage drop and keep as much power going to the pump as possible.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,796
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
The current controlling a 120 volt relay would be less than the current controlling a 24 volt relay. However the rules for running the 24 volt wiring are less rigorous, so I think that is your better bet unless you are running new power wiring to the cistern area anyway.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
You could also use a pressure tank and pressure switch to control the pump on and off. Then at the storage tank all you need is a solenoid (sprinkler valve) to operate off the float switch. This way you won't need to run any wires between the well and storage tank.

If you do run control wires for that distance, I have had better luck with DC voltage. AC voltage can cause impedance between the wires and even though the switch at the storage tank opens, the pump will not know it and can continue to run.
 

Zef_66

New Member
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Williamsport, Pennsylvania
You could also use a pressure tank and pressure switch to control the pump on and off. Then at the storage tank all you need is a solenoid (sprinkler valve) to operate off the float switch. This way you won't need to run any wires between the well and storage tank.

Interesting. I am liking where this is going.

I'm not sure how a sprinkler valve works, but would the float valve work just like a toilet tank would? When the water gets low, it opens a valve to allow the water (pressurized by the tank) to fill the tank. When it gets full, the valve shuts off.

The only thing (which may not be an issue) is that I would want the tank to drain half way down before refilling. Something like this, if I am thinking about it correctly, would start filling once the water level got just a little bit lower.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
You could use a non-modulating float valve similar to a toilet float valve. The non-modulating ones will either be fully open or fully closed. They won't fill the last inch or two very slowly like a modulating float valve (like a toilet float valve). And you can adjust the float on the rod to move down as far as you want before the valve opens up, so you can use half the tank before it starts filling.

But I was talking about an electric solenoid valve (sprinkler valve) that needs 24V to operate, and you run it from a float switch in the tank. The float switch can be tethered short or long. A long tether would allow the water level to drop lower in the tank before it starts refilling. If you don't have power at the storage tank you can even run these with a 12V battery, which will last a long time, and you can even put a little solar charger on it.
It would be very similar to this drawing.
LOW YIELD WELL_and storage with two PK1A.jpg
 

pho

New Member
Messages
24
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Cedar Park, Texas
In my thread about "Resin spilling out at backwash cycle in Culligan WS", I've talked a little bit about my water system. I wish having a hill like yours, providing free 40 psi.
1- You could use it for your household water need without a booster pump. After a while you will be used with 40 psi. However, you could compensate the low pressure for higher volume with large pipe. from the tank to your house and inside your house too.
2-I would suggest you build a pump house covering your well, booster pump, pressure tank and all the electrical controls so you don't have to run back and forth from the house to the pump. Make it larger since you've to put filters, chlorine injector, water softeners etc.. later on. I made a mistake of building my pump house too small 6'*8'. My friend's pump house is 14'*14" to cover his well and 3000 gallon cistern.
3- The 3/4 hp pump motor could be too small and would take forever to fill out the tank. 3/4 pump is very flimsy and after years of usage, its performance will degrade a lot. I am very glad to use a 2hp with 2" pipe. For large pump, you need large copper wire and a start wire too. (4 wires).
4- There is time when the booster pump and the well pump running at the same time with the incoming water from the well stirring all the sediment and debris at the bottom of the tank. Water incoming to the tank could be sprayed like a sprinkler to remove the gas if any (ieH2s) and not to disturb too much the water surface. You could have another tank, one using as for gravity sedimentation.
5- Using low power to control is float at the cistern is the best solution, inexpensive and less dangerous.
Good luck.
 

Zef_66

New Member
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Williamsport, Pennsylvania
Thanks for the thoughts pho.

Valveman, Thanks! I actually just found the same one and was going to post it here. Those valves look like they will work perfectly for my application.

I would rather not have to run power up the hill or even have a battery up there. The lower maintenance I can make my system, the better. So I am now planning on having the pump pressurize a pressure tank in the house. The pressure tank would provide the storage tank with pressurized water all the time. A fill valve like Valveman linked to would allow the tank to drain half way then fill back up. I will use a CSV at the pressure tank to make sure the pump isn't cycling on and off while the storage tank is filling. Then the water in the storage tank will provide ample supply and pressure to the house all the time, even if we lose electricity. And with a minimum of 500 gallons on reserve at all times, we should be able to go several days without hooking up a generator.

Very nice! I think that will work. Thanks again guys!
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,796
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
You should give some thought to preventing contamination and growth of organisms in the water. I don't have a prescription for you however. It may be that you could have a bacteria and mold resistant filter doing the venting in a closed tank up top that you could sanitize maybe once or every other year.
80 feet of water is 34.68 PSI. 30 PSI is a very reasonable house pressure.

If the pipe is big enough and the valve is big enough, the pump will not cycle while the tank is filling. When you next change your well pump, I would go with a 1/2 HP pump because smaller submersible pumps are not readily available.
 

Zef_66

New Member
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Williamsport, Pennsylvania
You should give some thought to preventing contamination and growth of organisms in the water. I don't have a prescription for you however. It may be that you could have a bacteria and mold resistant filter doing the venting in a closed tank up top that you could sanitize maybe once or every other year.
80 feet of water is 34.68 PSI. 30 PSI is a very reasonable house pressure.

If the pipe is big enough and the valve is big enough, the pump will not cycle while the tank is filling. When you next change your well pump, I would go with a 1/2 HP pump because smaller submersible pumps are not readily available.

Thanks. My plan is to just get the house built and everything installed this way, start using it and get the water tested. Since I am using the water and refilling on a constant basis, and the tank will be underground to keep it cool and out of sunlight, I don't *think* I will have any issues with bacteria growth. But if I do, I will install a chlorination system where the line comes from the pump into the house.

Yes, a CSV may not be necessary. But I would like to set everything up initially that I can run the house like a normal system without the storage tank. If for some reason I want to run normally, I can just close a couple of ball valves and open a few others and I can have water directly from the pump to the pressure tank and into the house. The CSV would help there, I believe.
 

pho

New Member
Messages
24
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Cedar Park, Texas
The internet/forums would help you a lot and you've also do by trials and errors. Yet, it is not a one time deal with a perfect installation. You could fix leaking pipes or make improvements along the way since you are a handy person.
I build a very nice pump house with insulation, sheet rock, electrical wiring in walls. After 17 years with the pipe busting, booster pump change, improvements, etc... the inside doesn't look as nice and organized I intend to have originally. Every time I change the the big boy filter, water is spilling everywhere. I am planning to build another large pump house soon.
Good luck to you.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks