How professional are these plumbing waste and vents?

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by joallen001, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. joallen001

    joallen001 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    TN
    First off thanks to everyone for all the great information on this forum. I have read a lot of great information on this site over the past few months. I have attached several pictures of a recent drain and vent install. The installation is on a remodel that was completely gutted. I will be running all the water lines with uponor. I will say the drain and vents were not installed by me. A local plumber was hired to do this. I am a little worried about the work that was done. We even had a big discussion on vents. The plumber wanted to stub all the vents up in the attic and vent them there. I disagreed and said it was the wrong way to do it. The argued and said they do it all the time. I said if people do this all the time then why do I see vents stubbed out of the roof on every new house that is built. I will try to give details on each picture below. I am really concerned about how these drains and vents were done.
    The first two photos show the washer box drain going down with just a 90 fitting. I thought you had to have a p-trap within 30" on this. Also there is no vent. I thought you had to vent the washer. Also the kitchen has no vent, thought it had to be vented also.
    The third photo is showing the p-trap for the washer box. The other drain you see there is for a bathroom sink.
    The fourth picture shows how far the washer drain really runs before it even goes into the p-trap. Its hard to see but the p-trap is to the left of the stairs. All the pipe to the right is coming off the washer drain, goes behind the stairs, then into the trap.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  2. joallen001

    joallen001 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    TN
    The next few pictures show some of the other drains. The first picture shows the toilet and vanity drain. The only vent in this bathroom is on the vanity which is upstream of the shower and toilet.
    The second picture is showing the same toilet and vanity drain from a different view with clean out.
    The third pic shows the shower draining it downstream of the toilet.
    Thanks for any comments and for taking the time to analyze the pictures.

    Basically the entire house is 2 full baths and each bath has a 2" vent on the vanity.

    Attached Files:

  3. johnjh2o1

    johnjh2o1 Plumbing Contractor for 49 years

    Messages:
    1,141
    Location:
    South*East
    I have seen nothing that would be considered a vent. The guy is a hack, and doesn't have a clue.

    John
  4. joallen001

    joallen001 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    TN
    Yes the only vents are in the bathrooms. I should of took some pics above the floor.
  5. johnjh2o1

    johnjh2o1 Plumbing Contractor for 49 years

    Messages:
    1,141
    Location:
    South*East
    The lack of vents are not the only things that are wrong. He has san. tees on there sides. No vent on the washer. Plus the waste line on the washer should be 2" not 1-1/2". I sure hope you haven't paid him.

    John
  6. kreemoweet

    kreemoweet New Member

    Messages:
    371
    Location:
    Seattle. WA
    Why are you even calling this guy a "plumber"? This guy really should be in jail. He is a fraud and a menace to public health.
  7. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,302
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    It makes me wonder if you selected a handyman for this job. A handyman will work much cheaper that a licensed plumber, so it is tempting. Did this guy pull a permit and was the work inspected? My guess is no one both counts. On the positive side, you at least are smart enough to suspect a rat.
  8. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,253
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    There is so little, if anything, about that system which is proper that it should be cut out and redone to make it right. Every one of those tees in a horizontal drain line are incorrect and would never have passed an inspection. He also has no clue about venting. You might want to call your local building department to have them look at it and addess the capabilities of your "plumber". If he is a licensed plumbing contractor the license should be revoked and if he is not, then the Business and Professions Code, section 7031 states that if you do not pay him, the courts will not listen to his suit.
  9. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,770
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    No standpipe receptor for any clothes washer standpipe shall extend more then thirty (30) inches or less then eighteen (18) inches above it's trap. No trap for any clothes washer standpipe shall be installed below the floor, but shall be roughed in not less then six (6) inches and more then eighteen (18) above the floor

    All horizontal fittings below the floor level should be wyes or combos.
    Santee fittings can be installed in the vertical position.
    Vents extend through the roof. Individual vents can tie back together at 6" above the flood level. In most cases, this would be at 42" above the floor.
    A lav is vented within 42"
    1.5" trap arm within 42"
    2.0" trap arm within 60"

    Most of the 90 bends in the photos are wrong too.
    Long turn 90 on the horizontal, Long turn from vertical to horizontal.
    Medium turn from horizontal to vertical is okay.

    Here is a nice link to Bert Polk's plumbing tips

    Tennessee uses the 2006 IPC
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  10. joallen001

    joallen001 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    TN
    Thanks for all the comments. They are definately not handymen. It is two brothers that strictly do plumbing. I wont mention any names but they work out of a van lettered with all there plumbing business info on it. No permit was required and there are no inspections. I would like to here thoughts on all the issues that I can bring up to the plumber. But then again that may not matter since they say they are the professional plumbers and you can vent into an attic. Almost like fighting a losing battle since I do not do plumbing as my profession. They act as though I dont know what I am talking about.
  11. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,770
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Really? That explains how they can keep fooling homeowners.
    Call the city and talk to the inspector there.
  12. joallen001

    joallen001 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    TN
    Yes. Built a duplex about two years ago. You pay to have a water meter set and a septic permit is required to get the power cut on. The only inspection we have here is on the electrical. From looking at the pics the toilet should have a combo right? When I first looked at it I thought that is way to tight of a turn. Notice they put the clean out right there with it.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  13. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,302
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    I find it hard to believe there is no plumbing permits or inspections in Tennessee. You say these guy work out of a van with their names on the side, but do they have a license? If you haven't already paid them, don't, and if you have consult an attorney and sue them.
  14. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,767
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Do you live in an unincorporated area of your county? I'm just a little confused because at some level there should be a responsible authority even if the authority doesn't mandate an inspection. At a minimum, there is a state-level regulating authority. I am so appalled by this thread that I'm happy to noodle around a little bit and see if I can't find the appropriate authority to complain to, if you're comfortable sharing a little more geographic info (i.e. name of town and county).
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  15. joallen001

    joallen001 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    TN
    If a permit or inspection is required I am not aware of it. I dont see how it would be possible to build a new home without being questioned for a permit or a inspection. I am not sure if the plumbers have a license but I see them working in homes all the time. If inspections or permits were required you would think the work would be done right. The location is Lawrence County TN. The plumbers have been paid. Who would I call to have the work inspected or looked at. Is there a way to force them to fix the plumbing the right way?
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  16. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,302
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    I'm by no means an authority on this, but I would think the first place to go would be the county. If no help there, then I would consult an attorney who could get to the right agency for straight answers. This is not just a relatively minor case of a wrong fitting or two, it's really the whole job. In my opinion, you would be entitled for refund of the entire money paid plus compensation to remove the whole mess and to have it done right. There could be punitive damages as well.
  17. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,770
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
  18. joallen001

    joallen001 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    TN
    I checked the link. I see there is a person listed as the code enforcement officer and I know him personally. Maybe I should contact him and go from there.
  19. joallen001

    joallen001 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    TN
    I copy and pasted this from the link. It mentions 15 counties being exempt and Lawrence County is listed.

    Limited Licensed Plumber (LLP)
    This state LLP license is issued to individuals needing to perform work in areas where there is not a local codes enforcement office offering local licensing for permits and inspections. This license requires passing a 40 question exam (exam pre-approval is not required for the LLP) and only acceptable for projects LESS THAN $25,000. Many municipalities do not accept the LLP, including areas where local government performs their own licensing and those 15 exempt counties which are not regulated by this law (Benton, Decatur, Dickson, Giles, Henderson, Henry, Hickman, Humphreys, Lake, Lawrence, Lewis, Obion, Perry, Stewart and Weakley). In addition, if a person or contractor has a contractor’s license with a CMC or CMC-A classification, they are exempt from obtaining an additional license as a the LLP; but not exempt from local license or inspections. Plumbing Inspections for LLP's are in line with the new Residential Building Code Program with the Division of Fire Prevention for areas without codes offices. The LLP license requirement became effective on January 1, 2006.
  20. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,767
    Location:
    New York, NY
    It may be that he doesn't need that license in your county, but I would check with the code enforcement guy anyway, particularly if you know him. The absence of a need for a license does not of itself eliminate the requirement that the work in any event be done to code. It unfathomable that plumbing in your county could be entirely-free of code requirements or inspection, but at a minimum I would call the county executive's office and find out. If it is unregulated, someone ought to raise hell, because you would then be living proof of the crap (and potentially-dangerous) plumbing being done in this unregulated environment. Is electrical also done without any reference to code? How can -- at a minimum -- insurance companies tolerate this -- it's a recipe for massive liability to them.

    As to the venting into the attic -- how could anyone be such a hack as to think that this would be acceptable or that sewer gas accumulating up there would be a good idea? Heck, why not just send the gas water heater exhaust up there, too? It's "clean burning", right? (I actually knew someone who had a famous tennis player die while staying in his guest/poolhouse, allegedly due to the defective installation of a propane pool heater by a non-plumber: they ran the exhaust pipe to just inside a louvered door rather than fully-outside, and the gas accumulated and was sucked through the HVAC system into the dwelling and killed the guy while he slept. Apparently, the pool company was warned by the manufacturer's rep that had inspected it when it wasn't heating that the unit wasn't installed properly for an indoor location, and this warning was ignored, so the mechanic and the company were arrested and charged with criminally-negligent homicide.)

    As to recourse, I don't know Tennessee law, but many jurisdictions impose on any person doing work of this nature (including what is essentially a design component) an implied warranty of suitability for a particular use; given that this installation just by looking at it can be predicted not to perform to the standard reasonably-expected for a single-family home, there is likely to be a legal theory that would give you a right of recovery. That alone should be enough leverage to get these hacks to fix the work to be code-compliant.
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
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