How long of a wait with ceramic tile?

Discussion in 'Remodel Forum & Blog' started by Livin4Real, Sep 19, 2007.

  1. Livin4Real

    Livin4Real New Member

    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    In the process of remodeling our bathroom. Our house was built in the 60's and everything plumbing wise has to go. Now my problem is our house only has one bathroom so obviously I'd like to get it done in a short as possible time once started. The wife has decided on ceramic for the flooring which is great but I told her we'll be roughing it for a few days. What kind of timeframe am I really looking at for a prepped floor to be tiled, grouted, sealed and ready to use? We share 120 acres with four other of our family member houses so we can run next door if need be but I'm dreading those middle of the night callings, lol.
  2. tonykarns

    tonykarns In the Trades

    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    wisconsin
    Not long

    What I do If I have a client that needs the bathroom asap is:

    Average 8' x 10' bathroom

    1. Remove toilet. 10 min. Remove base molding. 10 min.
    2. Cut and screw down concrete board. 1 hr. Cut bottom of door case
    molding so tile goes underneath it. 10 min.
    3. Lay out and cut tiles to fit bathroom. 2 to 3 hrs
    4. Install toilet flange extender. 15 min
    5. Install tiles around toilet first with quick dry 2 hour thin set mortor. 3/4hr
    (Takes time to mix mortor and lay tiles around toilet area.)
    6. Finish laying tiles with 2 hr quick dry thin set mortor going down center
    of bathroom from toilet area and out to edges of walls working my way
    right out of the bathroom. 2 hr.
    WAIT 2 FULL HOURS
    7. Mix grout with a latex additive and grout tiles around toilet area first then
    finish grouting rest of floor sliding the plywood back out of the door way
    and staying on the plywood until I am out of the bathroom. Wash down
    floor to remove excess grout. 2 hrs.
    8. Set up fan in bathroom and let sit overnight.
    TOTAL TIME SO FAR=11.5 HOURS GOING NON STOP!
    9. After 24 hours have gone by seal the grout. 1hr.
    10. Lay plywood back over floor so it goes to the toilet.
    11. Install toilet. 1/2 hr.

    The longest time consuming item is the 24 hour period before applying the grout sealer. So in reality you can if you push it you can use the toilet on the second day in the evening. I had to do one of these quick jobs this year in black and white tile which I have posted on my web site. Of course you have to install you base molding whenever, but at least you can use the toilet. I leave the plywood on the floor to walk on for a day just to keep the dirt out of the freshly sealed grout.

    tonysprofessionalremodeling.com
  3. Livin4Real

    Livin4Real New Member

    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    That's moving! I had planned on 3-4 days of being without toilet. My other option is since I'm moving the toilet from one side of the bathroom to the other, was to tile the side of the bathroom without the toilet one day and allow to dry, then take the toilet out and do the other side the next day.
    If you don't mind me asking, what do you charge per sq. ft.?(It'll be prepped and ready for tile and I've already bought the tile) I'd like to have a ballpark figure to go off of just for labor.

    Thanks,
    Brian
  4. leejosepho

    leejosepho DIY scratch-pad engineer

    After the concrete board was down and ready for tile -- that took two evenings for me -- I spent one evening cutting tile to fit, then another to actually lay the tile. After that, I gave the thinset a few days for curing (shrinking), then I spent another evening applying the grout. The grout sealer I used was only supposed to be applied after the grout had cured for two weeks, but maybe some grouts and sealers can be processed more quickly.

    To estimate time, I always make my best guess ... then double the number and move to the next larger unit of measure. For example, 4 hours become 8 days, or 3 days become 6 weeks, etc.!
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2007
  5. Livin4Real

    Livin4Real New Member

    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    lol, I know how that goes. I started our remodel in late June, complete gut down to bare studs in all but two rooms. I'm in the home stretch now, just needing to get the plumbing and bathroom knocked out so we can finish drywall and start flooring. I may have to rent a port-a-jon for a week :p
  6. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,332
    Location:
    New England
    Quick curing thinset may not be the best choice for a DIY'er that doesn't have much experience setting tile. You don't have much open time.For a pro, it does give them a lot of flexibility to bang out a job with minimum down time to the customer.Choosing tile should not be a last minute choice...a successful job requires ensuring the structure - the joists and subflooring - are up to snuff for the install to be long-lived. Are you sure your deflection spec's are adequate? Industry testing has shown that a floor can fail immediately or it might take up to 10-years before it happens, just depends on how the failure avenues line up and cross. This timeframe is often long enough so it is not considered installer error (typically 1-year), but in reality, is.
  7. Livin4Real

    Livin4Real New Member

    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    I intend on hiring a pro on the tile, I was just trying to get an idea of how long it would take. I already have the tile, #4 pei and new subfloor will be laid before the cement board goes down. The area to be tiled is very small considering the room is only 5'x9' and the tub will take up 5'x almost 3' so about 30 sq.ft. tiled is all.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2007
  8. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,332
    Location:
    New England
    Keep in mind that the actual size of the room has nothing to do with the deflection of the joists...that depends only on how long they are betweeen supports underneath, the species (or construction if engineered), their spacing, and their height. A small room in the middle of a span is probably the worst since it will ultimately deflect the furthest distance.
  9. Livin4Real

    Livin4Real New Member

    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    Gotcha, I wasn't worried about the deflection because the tub will be against an exterior wall, over a full basement with support beam cutting the span to 13', 16" oc with 3/4"x16" rough sawn boards angle layed across joists (built in 60's) along with another 3/4" of plywood decking on top of that, yup an inch and a half of subfloor :) The first layer of sub will be replaced with 1/2" and then 1/4" cement board on top of it to even it up with our hardwood floors. It's solid. Taking into consideration the thickness of the subfloor, it's probably around .2 deflection which is fine for ceramic, i think the limit is .4.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2007
  10. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,332
    Location:
    New England
    Your subfloor is fine, you joists may not be. Depends on the height of the joists, the type of wood, and their condition. If the joists are 2x8, not good. If they are 2x10's, depends on the condition (lots of holes for plumbing or wiring, ducts, etc will decrease the strength).
  11. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

    Messages:
    2,777
    Location:
    USA
    Our single bathroom was out of operation for one week, so I can sympathise. No toilet for this long presented us with problems. So we bought one of these:

    [​IMG]

    We filled this in one week, so it was a very close call. Emptying it was thoroughly unpleasant, but it did not leak at all or smell (much).
  12. leejosepho

    leejosepho DIY scratch-pad engineer

    Attached Files:

  13. tonykarns

    tonykarns In the Trades

    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    wisconsin
    your ok

    Its good that you have someone experienced to do the tile work for you. He should have no proplem completing the project in two or 3 days. The charge for floor tile work in our area of Milwaukee is about $10.00 per sq foot. An experienced tile setter, with proper prep, can do the job withing 3 days. Make sure he puts latex additives in the grout to prevent cracking. The new additives I use allow some flex on the floor.

    tonysprofessionalremodeling
  14. tonykarns

    tonykarns In the Trades

    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    wisconsin
    joists

    If your worried about deflection, which at .2 you need not be, just add short braces crisscrossed inbetween the joists under the bathroom. (if you have access)
  15. Livin4Real

    Livin4Real New Member

    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    Plenty of access, full basement is finished out except in the laundry room which is below the bathroom so I can put in cross-bracing which I have to anyway for the new tub. I'm switching from a right-hand drain to left so I'll be reinforcing the old cutout and the new one. 2x10 on the joists. I appreciate all the input. We actually have one of the camp toilets already out in the boat, forgot all about it. Thanks for all the great info guys :)
  16. how long are the 2x10 joists? This is what deflection is all about. Not the other direction, cross-bracing.

    david
  17. Livin4Real

    Livin4Real New Member

    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    :) I'm good on deflection

    Also cross-bracing does help with deflection by sharing the load with the two neighboring joists, that's why they install it to keep floors from creaking which is in part caused by bowing of the joist when walked on.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2007
  18. tonykarns

    tonykarns In the Trades

    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    wisconsin
    crossbracing

    Your right living4real. Cross bracing helps in both directions and he already said he had little defelection, lets not beat a dead horse on the defelection thing!

    For ceramic tile the maximum allowable deflection is calculated at L/360. For stone tile, the MIA (Marble Institute of America/www.marble-institute.com) calculates maximum deflection at a rate of L/720. To calculate, convert the span from feet into inches then divide by 360 or 720. The end result gives you the maximum amount the floor can move under a or "expected" load.

    Just for furture reference: Take a string and place it across the widest part of a floor just above the floor making it tight and measure from the floor to the string looking for the greatest amount of gap. Estimate what your greatest load would be on that floor and place that amount of weight in the center. Re-measure from floor to string and make sure the deflection does not exceed the maximum amount. If it exceeds the maximum then you need to either reinforce or dont lay the tiles. If you look at the slate tile job I did years ago on my web site that is how we determined it was ok to lay the slate over a 20' x 25' span.

    The biggest mistake that DIY's make is that they by cheap thin tile which is subject to cracking if to much deflection is present. Some even make the mistake of using wall tile on floors. Use good quality floor tile which combined with concrete board screwed down properly and even spread of latex modified thinset mortar creates a nice mini slab thus spreading out the load when you walk on it.

    It sounds like you have a good handle on your project living4real.

    Put the tile in so you can get to using your bathroom lol.

    tonysprofessionalremodeling









    Put the tiles in. you will be fine.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2007
  19. Livin4Real

    Livin4Real New Member

    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    never thought about the string idea, like grading a parking lot, only a bit smaller scale :)

    What brand grout material and additive do you recommend Tony? I want to do it right the first time.


    Brian
  20. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,272
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    toilet

    Without reading all the responses, has anyone addressed your comment about moving the toilet? That by itself can derail any time schedule. Especially one that involves tiling half the floor before moving it.
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