How illegal is this? Vented gas fixtures

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Lordoftheflies

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I was doing electrical work today and saw this. Advised the homeowner he should get an HVAC and/or plumber out asap to vent every unit directly to the outside with its own vent. This is just a disaster waiting to happen (and quite illegal), isn't it?

Not to mention the lack of tape at most of the joints as well as the cinder blocks that both water heaters and boilers are sitting on. Homeowner has back-to-back attached buildings and both of them have the same set up.

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clocert

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It is a building code issue, check your local building code to see if it is regulated.
 

Lordoftheflies

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Not my building, as I mentioned I was just doing electrical work there...But I can't imagine any building code allowing four separate devices to run off the same pipe with the possibility of the exhaust getting backdrafted.
 

Caduceus

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Multiple appliances can connect to properly sized and installed exhaust flue. The concerns that I first notice in the pictures are elevation for flooding and flammable vapors (most codes require 18", could vary), air tight seals on connections of piping, slope of piping, clearances to nearby objects and structure, proper supports, type of pipe for penetrations through the structure and backflow prevention for potable water system. The T&P valves have no drip tubes and the tank venting should have a minimum vertical rise above the connection to the tank before offsetting.
The cinder blocks are sturdy and accepted as a waterproof support under tanks when upright as they are, but must be leveled and cells should be filled with mortar to prevent them from cracking or breaking .
I'm sure there are more problems that can be spotted with an on site inspection. These are a few that jump out at the moment.
 

Dana

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It's not certain that they met the clearance to combustibles at the venting ell next to the joist- looks like they stuffed a wad of fiberglass insulation in there to try & make up for it.

Other issues:

The lack of foundation, band joist & foundation sill insulation would not meet current code for new construction in NY (unless it is insulated on the exterior, and we just can't see it), which would require R10 continuous insulation on the foundation wall (or R13 in a non-structural 2x4 studwall) in Tarrytown, more in the Adirondacks. But in it's current condition the (apparently) un-sealed foundation sill & band joist leaks air like a sieve, the backdrafting issue is mitigated. Still it's an unnecessarily lossy building envelope that could be cost-effectively retrofitted.

What's with the split foam insulation on the gas plumbing rather than the hot water distribution plumbing? IRC 2012 requires R3 min for most hot water distribution plumbing, but currently NY only requires insulation for HW recirculation systems, so they're not out of compliance there. I'm not sure if it's legal to cover up gas plumbing with insulation though, since it would mask corrosion issues.

Seems almost criminal (though clearly legal) to have standalone hot water tanks next to hydronic boilers of roughly the same burner size rather than indirect hot water heaters heated by the boilers. An indirect HW solution would cut the venting requirements in half, while increasing the duty-cycle on the boilers for improved net efficiency.
 

Jadnashua

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Another issue is how is combustion make-up air being addressed? Can't see the room size, but there are code requirements about cubic feet of the room for atmospheric burners...if they were all on at once, you'd need a very large volume or a lot of engineered leaks to provide combustion air for all of the burners.
 

hj

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quote; Seems almost criminal (though clearly legal) to have standalone hot water tanks next to hydronic boilers of roughly the same burner size rather than indirect hot water heaters heated by the boilers.

That is YOUR personal opinion and not shared by ALL plumbers. I am glad the original poster stated that he was an electrician, because the issues he was concerned about are ALL legal. There are obviously other problems but not necessarily the ones other posters seem to be concerned about, such as the 18" height requirement that applies when it is in a garage, NOT in a basement.
 

Dana

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quote; Seems almost criminal (though clearly legal) to have standalone hot water tanks next to hydronic boilers of roughly the same burner size rather than indirect hot water heaters heated by the boilers.

That is YOUR personal opinion and not shared by ALL plumbers. I am glad the original poster stated that he was an electrician, because the issues he was concerned about are ALL legal. There are obviously other problems but not necessarily the ones other posters seem to be concerned about, such as the 18" height requirement that applies when it is in a garage, NOT in a basement.

Of course it's my personal opinion, but it would clearly cut the venting volume and make-up air capacity issues in half, making them much more tractable, and would have a somewhat lower operating cost. Clearly it is not in-itself a code violation, but would make code-compliance on the other stuff simpler. On day-1 it wouldn't have been necessarily more expensive either, but as a retrofit it would.
 

DonL

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So who ran the wires along the venting ?

How high is the Chimney that all that mess goes to ?


It may have met code when installed. But that wiring will not fly, even in the day.
 
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Dana

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So everyone missed that pesky clearances to combustibles thing? Lol

Hmm...

Caduceus made reference to "...clearances to nearby objects..." in his laundry-list.

My opening line on this thread was "It's not certain that they met the clearance to combustibles at the venting ell next to the joist- looks like they stuffed a wad of fiberglass insulation in there to try & make up for it."

That would seem to indicate at least a couple of people flagged the " pesky clearances to combustibles thing" as an issue that needs looking at. (I miss stuff when I scan threads too quickly too, eh?)
 

DonL

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I am not so sure it is correct to take pictures of a costumers stuff like that, and post it on a Forum.

You can Nit Pick that setup all day long.


That post about the Blocks holes needing filled with mortar cracked my ass up.
 

Lordoftheflies

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Thanks for all the responses. Technically this is a garage + basement apartment - the floor is below ground down a large slope from the street and was flooded out during Sandy. The garage framing was done so cheaply and poorly it has to be redone completely.

Can I ask if you all could clarify a few things please:

1) Clearance to combustibles - so at the "L" where the venting goes up - are you saying it has to come down straight first before bending? What is the requirement exactly or does that depend on the municipality?

2) Sharing the vent - all those units are gas. What exactly should the homeowner do? Run separate lines? I don't see how it can remain as is and be legal. If one is one and the others are not firing, couldn't something as simple as running a range hood cause a backdraft down the other open air vents?

3) "Ran the wires along the venting" - what exactly are you referring to here?

4) There is no make up combustion air system at all.

5) "I am not so sure it is correct to take pictures of a costumers stuff like that, and post it on a Forum. You can Nit Pick that setup all day long."

I'm trying to help the homeowner actually. Any help is appreciated. And i'm worried that someone would get hurt, not trying to nitpick.

And in terms of nitpicking it's "customer's", not "costumers".

Thanks.

6) The house is attached on both sides so maybe that's why there is no insulation on that wall. Also I have no idea why they have the split foam on the gas lines. Maybe they were taken off after the flood and put on the wrong pipes. I didn't even catch that when I was there.

Oh and the property is in Queens, NY.
 

DonL

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Not meaning to be rude, but Your own pictures tell the story.

What electrical work did you do ?


Can you Run Fast ?
 

Dana

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Thanks for all the responses. Technically this is a garage + basement apartment - the floor is below ground down a large slope from the street and was flooded out during Sandy. The garage framing was done so cheaply and poorly it has to be redone completely.

Can I ask if you all could clarify a few things please:

1) Clearance to combustibles - so at the "L" where the venting goes up - are you saying it has to come down straight first before bending? What is the requirement exactly or does that depend on the municipality?

2) Sharing the vent - all those units are gas. What exactly should the homeowner do? Run separate lines? I don't see how it can remain as is and be legal. If one is one and the others are not firing, couldn't something as simple as running a range hood cause a backdraft down the other open air vents?

3) "Ran the wires along the venting" - what exactly are you referring to here?

4) There is no make up combustion air system at all.

5) "I am not so sure it is correct to take pictures of a costumers stuff like that, and post it on a Forum. You can Nit Pick that setup all day long."

I'm trying to help the homeowner actually. Any help is appreciated. And i'm worried that someone would get hurt, not trying to nitpick.

And in terms of nitpicking it's "customer's", not "costumers".

Thanks.

6) The house is attached on both sides so maybe that's why there is no insulation on that wall. Also I have no idea why they have the split foam on the gas lines. Maybe they were taken off after the flood and put on the wrong pipes. I didn't even catch that when I was there.

Oh and the property is in Queens, NY.


1> The ell where it turns up appears to have sufficient clearance to the joist edge,provided it's B-vent at that point, not single-wall, which isn't entirely clear. But where it becomes vertical it looks like it's too close to the side of the joist even for B-vent, and that they packed in some fiberglass insulation or something rather than giving it necessary clearance. It's not clear from the camera angles if the venting has the necessary clearances from wiring or PEX or whatever.

The horizontal sections of vent have to consistently rise a minimum of 1/4" per foot of running length, and never back-pitch. The "equivalent length" of ells & tees on that horizontal path need to be considered in that calculation as well. The slope of the venting doesn't appear to be sufficient everywhere, and appears to be angled slightly downward rather than upward (especially where it leaves the right-most water heater).

IIRC there needs to be vertical for a minimum of 18'' or 2' or before the first ell or tee above the draft hood(s). That doesn't appear to meet code any of the 4 units, but it's especially egregious on the right-most water heater where the first ell is right at the draft hood.

Given the length of the horizontal run there probably isn't enough vertical clearance to meet code both minimum slope AND the minimum vertical rise above the draft hood. If the water heaters were indirect HW heaters running off the boilers there is plenty of vertical space for venting the pair of boilers in a code-compliant fashion, since the draft hoods are lower than on the standalone HW heaters.

2> It's legal to vent multiple burners into a single flue, as long as the sizing of the flue is correct for the burner BTU and the total length of the flue runs etc. While as-installed this does not appear to be up to snuff on a number of counts, it's not clear if flue sizing for the burner capacity is one of the problems. That part may or may not be in compliance, but given the rest of it re-doing the math on it would be prudent.
 

DonL

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Nice post Dana.

It must have passed inspection if it is in New York and a Multi Dwelling.

Kind of reminds me when I take my car in for a new set of tires, and they tell my my engine oil needs changed. They have no business even checking my Oil, unless I ask.


Have Fun.
 

Dana

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Don't take my word on it for the code-specifics on how much vertical off the draft hood is required- it may vary, and I didn't feel like look it up in NY code. (I'm not in that biz, and I'm not in NY, but I've been around, and have had to deal with this stuff multiple times, if not recently.)

There is no way to get away from the minimum slope, or clearances from combustibles. IIRC B-vent needs an inch of clearance, single-wall needs 6". The fire risk probably isn't super-high here, but the backdrafting/spillage of exhaust in to the boiler room risk is up there, with insufficient vertical above the draft-hoods to the first turn, and even a double-ell at the water heater at the end. (I wouldn't just live with it as-is if that were my rental property. YMMV.)

BTW: Taking another look at it, the boiler on the left looks like it probably has sufficient straight rise above the draft hood, but none of the others look kosher.
 

DonL

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In New York they stack things tall.

There may be a nice draft, if the chimney is on the penthouse roof...

Until a Pigeon builds a nest in it. Then you get cooked eggs.
 
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