Hot water only in new house

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by ou1954, Jan 10, 2013.

  1. ou1954

    ou1954 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Moore, OK
    I have three single handle faucets in this house. The one for the shower works fine. The one for the jacuzzi worked fine when the home was built in 2007 but is now very clogged.


    The third one serves a tub/shower has only given hot water since the house was built. I'm hoping the problem is a cartridge installed upside down but when I get a look at the pex feeding it both feed lines are white and I know the standard in this development is blue for cold and white for hot. We have been able to get along without using it or by adding cold water with a bucket, not fun for guests.


    If I send pictures of the valve can you tell me the brand and model number? I can see two adjustment screws, one on each sice, and can see that the cartridge is held inby a clip. There is also an adjustment screw on the handle unit.

    Where should I send the pictures?

    Attached Files:

  2. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    "clip" suggests Moen, but I don't see the clip in the photo.( Does the cap sleeve just slide off??) The piece on the end of the stem is a hot limiter. If your water is very hot, it prevents you from actually turning the shower temp up to full hot ( scalding). The screws on the left and right are NOT adjustments....they are shut-off valves so you can turn off the water to service the valve. They must BOTH be fully open for proper operation of the pressure balance mechanism.

    Describe exactly what happens....when you turn it on slightly, to the blue area on the plate...is it HOT?? or NO water?? What happens as you turn it further CCW?? If it is in fact a Moen Positemp, it is reversible for reversed hot and cold inlets.
  3. johnjh2o1

    johnjh2o1 Plumbing Contractor for 49 years

    Messages:
    1,141
    Location:
    South*East
    It's Delta.

    John
  4. ou1954

    ou1954 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Moore, OK
    Delta or Moen.

    Thanks Jimbo and John-

    Everything the house is indeed Delta but the bath sinks are two handle but same style as shower and tub. The kitchen has the handle style that lifts up and then L/R for temp.

    In any case I would take a guess that if the the right side screw on the body is a shutoff maybe it is simply turned closed. I'll try that before I put the trim parts and handle back on. I thought it was some sort of limiter.

    Jimbo, there is a clip but it is blended in with the background in the flash pictures. All the trim parts slide off after you remove the handle and it's trim (One trim cap and screw), then two long screws for the big trim piece.

    I would really hate to find that the wrong PEX feed lines come up, hope that's not the case.

    Anyhow, if this works I will have a look to find out what is clogging the jacuzzi which wasn't used for a year or more. I just don't want to find myself with the core pulled out and no way to get it back, however if it's like the shower/tub in question, the shut off valves should work.
  5. ou1954

    ou1954 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Moore, OK
    Hot hot hot from the start. I will try opening the screw on the right side that could be closed. I haven't touched it because I thought it was an adjustment.
  6. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,826
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Are all the PEX lines home-run to a manifold? If so, they should be labelled and you should be able to figure out what goes where.
  7. ou1954

    ou1954 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Moore, OK
    O.K., here's the deal-

    The clip I mentioned is only holding the turn limiter. My error in description. The valve itself is clearly opened by un-screwing the front half of the body with the flats on it.

    The left side screw clearly controls hot water because I can use it to turn off hot. The right side screw must be cold shutoff, but when I shut off the hot and then back off that screw there is no cold water. Based on my experience with the jacuzzi valve getting clogged with no use, I would guess there is a clog in the cold water path. I opened that cold shutoff quite a bit but don't know whether it might come all the way out and I would be in big trouble here. It sort of looks like the nuts around those screws keep them from coming all the way out.

    Is it safe to tighten both screws and then take out the body? I see many posts about taking out the core and feeling for clogs. If that's the case I will try it, and then next restore the jacuzzi which is down to a trickle, both hot and cold settings.

    And Jimbo, does my correction about the clip you didn't see make it a Delta in your mind?
  8. ou1954

    ou1954 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Moore, OK
    I would have preferred "Home Run" PEX but the house was built between my survey visit here and our purchase and move here. From looking at homes built later by the same builder it's clear that the water lines are buried in the sand under the slab and more or less daisy chained. We never tested the tub valve before the builder, who did relatively good work, went bankrupt.

    Thus, no manifold.
  9. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,803
    Location:
    New England
    All modern shower valves have some sort of anti-scald technology in them. If it's working properly, with the hot supply shut off, and only cold, it normally wouldn't output any water. Should be the same with the hot, but if the spool valve (the more typical way they do anti-scald) is stuck at one end, it might do what you're seeing. If those in-line shutoffs are working, yes, you should be able to turn them off then pull the cartridge. WOrst case, have someone ready to shut the main valve off if they no longer work right. Those shutoffs should be fully opened. Some are a 1/4-turn, but I think those are multi-turn and should stop at each end.
  10. ou1954

    ou1954 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Moore, OK
    Clearly multi-turn so 3-4 turns should supply some cold water.

    You can see what looks like two gaskets in the valve body. Check picture #2. It looks like the flats are intended to unscrew the front of the assembly, not sure what happens next.

    Where is the scald limiter?

    Why are there those two "gaskets" in the valve body. If I unscrew the front using those two flats, will only the front part come off or will both pieces come off as a unit?

    Our main shutoff is in a closet and the outside hose bibs have an 18" setback to the valve itself. I'm saying it's cold here-

    It would really be helpful if I could find a Delta assembly drawing. I am 80 years old now and still repair the cars. Retired aerospace engineer and physicist, but I like to know where I'm heading so I don't have to shut off the water and have an emergency plumber visit.

    Let me clarify. Hot works fine now. No cold however I set things. Must be a clog or a stuck limiter as someone said.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  11. johnjh2o1

    johnjh2o1 Plumbing Contractor for 49 years

    Messages:
    1,141
    Location:
    South*East
    That is not a balance pressure faucet. It is anti scald that is controlled by the stop on the stem.

    John
  12. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,803
    Location:
    New England
    All modern valves have a limiter in addition to some other anti-scald technology, either a pressure balanced valve or thermostatically controlled or both. Some of them have that control inside the cartridge, some have a separate spool valve. If the model can be determined, the manufacturers typically have instructions and parts breakdowns on their website. Just a limiter would have no effect on a loss of pressure like when someone flushes the toilet. If the house is plumbed well, it isn't a particularly big problem, but the regs require it.
  13. ou1954

    ou1954 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Moore, OK
    Thanks- I have done a lot of searching on the web but can't find the model nunber. Maybe someone on this blog will recognize it. I will take the picture to Home Depot tomorrow but they have a lot of turnover in the plumbing dept. There is an old-style plumbing supply house near here and I will try them. I want to know that parts are available before I open the valve body.

    Thanks again to everyone-
  14. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,251
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    IT is a Delta valve in the 600 series. It is NOT pressure balanced and if it were installed "upside down" all that would happen would be that the hot and cold would be reversed. It would have to be a very incompetent plumber who would connect hot water to both sides of the valve, regardless of the tubing color. Turn off the left hand integral stop, make sure the right one is open, then turn on the faucet to see what kind of water you get. IF it has been like this since the house was built, you must be a very "patient and forgiving" person to have NOT called the installer back to fix it.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2013
  15. plumber66

    plumber66 New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    indiana
    sure looks like the stop screw on the cold side of the valve is closed if this isnt it shut off the stops to both sides of the valve and take the cartridge out. put a bucket in front of the open valve and open the c.w. stop if you get water then you can try the h.w. side if it looks like the same amount of water then the problem is in the cartridge install
  16. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,761
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    LOL

    Yes, that's a good place to start. Make sure "both" stops are open.
    Good pick up on the photo!
  17. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,251
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Those are "screw in compression" valves so the orientation of the screwdriver slot hs NO relationship to whether it is open or closed.
  18. ou1954

    ou1954 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Moore, OK
    Fixed (almost) and found model number.

    I decided the shut off valves work so took it out and got it apart and removed the scale and rust that was locking the spool. It now slides back and forth easily when you shake the assembly. No springs, it floats freely but is a precision fit in the cylinder. You can see the metal pieces in the picture.

    The brand is "UPC" and an identical unit is available at:

    http://www.arpny.com/

    One Part number: Huntington Brass hun7006 although apparently several low end manufacturers use it. This is the only one I found. I was so excited to get it clean that I failed to put grease in to hold the rear O-rings when I was putting the body back in, and I have lost one D-shaped O-ring as seen in the picture. Back1.jpg

    All of the blue O-rings and the blue outside gasket seal to the back of the body which is flat with holes in it as required.

    I don't know wherher I can use some silicone cement to seal this or find a new O-ring, or have to buy a new cartridge.

    Thanks to everyone, especially the person who gave me the URL. I didn't go there until I found I had lost the O-ring. [Blue D-shaped in picture]

    The actual valves are Delta-style and are in a section that would be behind the section in the picture.

    Last edited: Jan 11, 2013
  19. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,803
    Location:
    New England
    Modern code requires anti-scald. This consists of two parts: limiting 'normal' maximum temperature (typically to 120-degrees F), and some means of preventing radical changes in temp when the pressure varies, like when someone flushes a toilet. Not sure exactly when this came into being, but it's been around for a number of years now (thus my description of 'modern'). Some use checkvalve(s), some use a spool valve, some use a thermostatically controlled valve, some use a combination. THis is almost always combined with the mechanical limiter. Since the supply at the hot side could change, a mechanical stop is one of the weakest ways to limit the temp. If adjusted in the summer when the cold is much warmer, it may not get hot enough in the winter. IF set in the winter, it may require mostly hot to reach that max safe temp, then in the summer could be way too hot. So, a much safer way is to use a thermostatically controlled valve. Most people never really adjust the things, and then that portion of the safety is lost. A mechanical limiter does nothing to prevent temperature variations caused by changes in pressure (thus flow). At the WH, many places require a tempering valve to limit the water temp, and this can make the stop at the shower valve redundant, but it still won't affect rapid variations in single sided supply which can cause problems.
  20. ou1954

    ou1954 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Moore, OK
    ===================


    jadnashua- Yes indeed. It has a free floading piston in the far back that moves from left to right. At least it's free floating now. Only problem is that I have lost one critical O-Ring (actually D shaped) as seen in the picture I have added. It's a precision piston in a precision sleeve, no springs. Apparently it is the anti-scald control.

    I doubt I can find any replacement O-rings but as a first start I will put the repaired one in the jacuzzi and wait until I can get a replacement cartridge or O-ring to use after cleaning the one from the jazuzzi. The guest shower has only been used for one guest in the past 5 years. All plumbing shops are closed on Saturday.
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