Hot Water Heater Questions

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by ibisboy1, Feb 19, 2012.

  1. ibisboy1

    ibisboy1 New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Illinois
    I have a question I am hoping someone can help me with. I had a 50 gallon (40K BTU) AO Smith water heater for about 10 years. In the past few months it was not producing enough how water for more than one person, but, before that we had no issues with my wife and I taking back to back showers. So, I decided to replace the tank with a new one that I bought from Home Depot. It is a GE 50 gallon tank (made by Rheem - GG50T06AVH00 - 38K BTH 50). However, I am finding that the tank is acting in a very similar way in the sense that it cannot produce enough hot water for back to back showers.

    I called GE and they told me my expectations are too high? According to them a hot water tank is only partially hot water (which I get) and I forget the amount quoted, but I think the hot water content was something like 35 gallons (so, say 70% of the total). So, by their calc with my showhead putting out about 3 gpm. I could only count on 10 to 12 minutes of hot water. Of course this has to be wrong give the 35 gallons are heated well beyond what anyone would shower at (we set the dial between A and B - I forget the exact temp range but the water at the highest temp is very hot).

    One other thing I had heard from GE is that our groundwater is cold here (just outside of Chicago). But we have the issue regardless of outside temp.

    GE has offered to send someone out (at a cost if they find no issue) but they assure me that nothing is wrong.

    I am wondering if anyone can help me with the following questions:

    1. Could anything outside of the hot water heater be at play? We did a bathroom remodel and replaced the shower hardware (including a new value etc). There was no immediate issue after the remodel, but, I thought I would throw that out there as we had seen something similar with both water heaters. We did check both the kitchen and shower and temps are the same.

    2. Is there a real calculation that I can use to figure out how many minutes of hot water I can expect? If not, does anyone have any real world experience with this water heater or any 50 gallon water heater that they can share? Given my experience with the AO Smith this water heater is not working correctly.

    Thanks,

    Stan
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 19, 2012
  2. liquidplumber

    liquidplumber In the Trades

    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    Gastonia NC
    Back to back showers should be no issue IF your taking a shower to get clean and not to hang out until you are pruned....lol Seriously tho, incoming cold water is a big issue that folks dont think about. Lets say your heater is heating water to 140 degrees ( which is pretty hot!) normal shower temp is more or less give or take 100 degrees and incoming cold water (in wintertime) is 40 degrees If we take your 50 gallon water heater and deplete it by half, now its half full of hot water (140) and half full of cold water (40) which would make the water inside maybe 90 degrees.. which is not as hot as you are calling for in your 100 degree shower. So your 3 gpm showerhead would run out your usable quantity of water pretty quick ( here we base hot /cold water usage in shower at 70% hot 30% cold) With these numbers 3 gpm in 10 minutes would equal 30 gallons, 70% of which is hot. Whats 70% of 30 gallons? 21? So in 10 minutes youre almost down to that halfway point where half the heater is 140 water and half is 40 water.. again 90 degrees.. At 90 degrees in your shower you are probably already cranking the hot valve up a little higher and the cold down a little which is changing the ratio of hot/cold even further making you use even more hot.
    Most folks dont have their water heaters turned up to 140 either. More often would be 125 to 130
    In the summer when your incoming water is already 75 degrees you barely use any hot to reach the 100 degree mark in the shower PLUS 75 degree and 140 degree water mixed together in your water heater would leave you with 100 degree water for a much longer period of time.
    In short, IMHO this is probably a seasonal issue that should clear up when things warm up outside.

    yes I do realize that the hot water in the heater rises (toward the outlet) and the cold comes in and is directed to the bottom... but they are still going to mix and lower the overall temperature
  3. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    There is a "70%" rule on water heaters, because the instant you start drawing hot water out, fresh cold water is coming in mixing into the tank. Of course there are variables, such as what temp. the tank is at and the temp of the incoming cold water, and even what temp you are showering at

    The 70% rule is supposed to approximate how many gallons you can get that are hot enough to shower in. That is in itself a variable....do you shower at 100º or at 108º??. There are guidlines about what percent of the water coming out of the shower head, and of course that is subject to the variables discussed.

    The difference in BTU is slight and should not be that noticeable. Hard to explain what you used to get, but the new unit should giver about 10 minutes worth of showers, not much more.

    If you take 10 minute showers, you won't get two of those back to back.
  4. Plumber111

    Plumber111 In the Trades

    Messages:
    76
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Call the plumber back. He can probably give you better performance. I could. :)
  5. SteveW

    SteveW DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,052
    Location:
    Omaha, NE
    Simple thing to check would be the actual temperature coming out of the showerhead when shower valve set for full hot. On my WHs the "A" and "B" settings are not at all reliable and I have had to crank up the WH temp setting to get hot enough water for showers, not to mention for the dishwasher.
  6. Hackney plumbing

    Hackney plumbing Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Alabama
    With a standard btu input residential water heater you can draw 70% of the tank and still be within 20 degrees of your initial temp. For example if your water is 140 degrees and you have a 40 gal water heater you will be able to draw 70% (28 gal.) and have no less than 120 degree water.
  7. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,143
    Location:
    New England
    Have you changed your showerhead? Did you remove the internal restrictor or drill it out? All new showerheads are required to provide no more than 2.5gpm, but some people modify them and yours might be before the rules change. But the rules don't limit how many you might have; throw in a couple of body sprays, or multiple heads of other types, and your water use will go way up and really stress your supply.

    if you truely have the WH set to 140-degrees, you should have a tempering valve to limit the outlet to 120 for safety. They're required where I live, regardless of what you have the tank's aquastat set to.
  8. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,831
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    I am not sure what kind of house you have or where the water pipes are located, but in this area, anytime I have situation like you describe, it usually means they have a broken hot water line somewhere which is draining the hot water almost as fast as the heater can make it. It also usually means the water heater is running 24 hours a day, so the gas and water bills begin to increase.
  9. SteveW

    SteveW DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,052
    Location:
    Omaha, NE
    Is our original poster still part of this conversation?
  10. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,831
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    In fact, I have seen less competent plumbers remove a water heater with these symptoms and install a new one. Then when the new one did the same thing, rather than check for the obvious water leak, try to return the heater and say is was defective. Then argue with me about whether it could be a water leak or not, (it ALWAYS is).
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