Hot tubs

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by cwhyu2, Mar 31, 2011.

  1. cwhyu2

    cwhyu2 Consultant

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    Had a loaded 200amp panel GE split buss, had to add sub panel,75 amp from exsting panel to sub panel.
    Then remove 1/25 amp & 40/amp 2 pole to the sub panel,so I could install the 75 & 60 amp breakers on the main panel 60 amp went to GFCI panal out of main to disconect.8/3 /g Ok
  2. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    No
    For a 60 amp circuit you will need a size 6 copper conductor
    For 75 amp a size 4 copper
  3. cwhyu2

    cwhyu2 Consultant

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    Cincinnati OH
    Good that is exactly what I did thanks.The 8/3 with g went to GFCI from main panel.
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2011
  4. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    8AWG is not large enough. You may end up with a burned up pump motor
  5. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    4 copper is allowed for service entrance and feed to subpanels using a 100 amp breaker, in this area.
  6. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    This does not comply with several code sections
  7. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    The utility has its own set of rules about what size wire they provide to your service entry panel...however, the homeowner is responsible to ensure things after that comply, regardless of what the power company supplies to them.
  8. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    The county calls it an "exception". Perhaps it was created to help the rural poor make those long service runs. It makes perfect sense, as how often does a homeowner load up his service with a 99 amp draw for more than a few seconds? Of course when the length of run gets excessive for voltage drop, one must upsize.

    As an example, look at the "exception" inside a hot water heater. One must bring in 10 or 8 wire, and then the factory wired everything up with 12 gauge.
  9. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    The county can’t do less than what the State of Ca. has adopted so it is still a violation.

    The types of conductors on the inside of a water heater are different conductor than what is installed for the branch circuit. Size 12 FPE conductors are good for 45 amps
  10. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    If you mean foam polyethelyne insulation, I dont see anything but basic thw or thhn wires in my water heaters.

    If 12 gauge wire can carry 45 amps, you should understand why 4 ga copper is oversize for even 100 amps.

    California likes to violate things, and it may disturb your sense of order, but things in the field often have little following of the letter of the law.
  11. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Now which is it a 75 or 90 degree conductor

    Here in NC the letter of the law when it comes to building codes is enforced very strictly
  12. cwhyu2

    cwhyu2 Consultant

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    Inspected and passed no problem
  13. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    If you live in San Francisco, that also applies, far too far to the extreme.

    But thats why I do not live in North Carolina. Although I suspect when you get out to those lonely hollers where few have teeth, they do utilize 12 gauge wire on 40 amp breakers, And the ground rods are 20" of used water pipe. If they had any idea of equipotential grounding grids, a few old tractor rims would be the first choice.

    Inspectors don't go where bull dogs roam.

    Judging by many arrests, the strict adherence to code is a huge source of 'extra' income for blind inspectors in cities like Chicago and New York.

  14. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Here if an inspector runs into a dog that is furious and uncontained the owner of the dog has to pay the animal shelter to get his dog back as well as a reinspection fee.

    The world is full of those that think that if it works it is alright and so the taxpayers keep paying their medical expenses. For the most part most people do things right and above board but there is always those few who think it will be alright.

    Now in that water heater which is it 75 or 90 degree conductors?
  15. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    As a general rule, those with guard dogs object to authority run amuck, and do not pull permits.

    The insulation of the internal wires on a electric water heater are a moot point as the electrician brings wires into the recessed can at the top of the heater.

    The hottest portion, and these wires have whatever insulation on them that he happened to have on his truck.
  16. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    The sweet thing about inspectors here is if they see something being built or work being done they can obtain an administrative search warrant to enter the property for the inspection process whether or not a permit was obtained by the builder or not. Of course there are limitations to this rule but it does not stop inspectors in this tight economy today.
    If no permit was obtained by the builder the inspector can have the meter pulled on that property until they are in compliance.

    It was you who brought up the conductors inside the water heater stating they were either THW, 75 degree or THHN 90 degree conductors. I was just wondering which the water heaters where you live have. I know that in my area they are something different.
  17. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    Your FPE looks like a bit of a troll to me. FPE seems restricted to coaxial cable. Perhaps you meant FEP.

    In any case, this chart shows 12 gauge ampacity at 40 amps, not 45. [THHW] 90' Also, if one looks at the ampacity of #4 copper, it becomes quite understandable why 100 amp services can be wired with it here. Free air or not.

    If your water heater is at 194' F, you have larger issues than wiring.

    http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_12/3.html

    SOUR, not sweet. But its true most areas, perhaps not Idaho and Humboldt county which has an owner builder set of rights, I forget the term, but with proper liability releases, you can build your pyramid of bottle caps. And wire it with FPE insulation.

    Proviso: Inspectors, unless they have your particular sense of order, are loathe to initiate such a process that may cost thousands with small hope of return. The legal system is plugged with a bit more egregrious crime, and the DA looks long and SLOOOW at these cases. Its more likely that a hold be placed for rehab at time of change of ownership, or a tax lien applied.

    When the owner say she is on oxygen with a bad heart, no DA on earth can pull her meter. And he wont get her medical records either. They cant even pull the meter if she stops paying. I think Thomas Jefferson has something to do with that, and he was certainly not an electrician. The PUC has a bible that trumps the NEC.

    So rather than continue the jousting, what wire insulation does your east coast heater have?
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2011
  18. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Don’t know about your part of the world but here the DA does not get involved in administrative issues such as no permits. This is all Civil issues and the code enforcement official does not need any go head approval of any DA in order to pull a meter. It wouldn’t matter if the person was on oxygen or not the meter will be pulled. If this is going to be a medical issue the person needing medical attention will receive all the attention they require.

    My personal water heaters, yes more than one on this little farm, does not have any marking on the conductors but I sleep easy knowing that whatever they are they have received the seal of approval from UL.
  19. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    This utility, and I suspect most, have a rate for medical useage. Once on that rate, the legality of pulling a meter are very complex and lengthy.

    The new problem is that we have allowed spy meters to have been foisted upon us. The utility, or the Chinese, can turn off our power from the antarctic.

    As to safety, that monthly visit from a reader was an important issue, and for enforcement minded souls such as yourself, much may be lost with "smart" meters.

    I am not a luddite, but our smart grid will bring future disasters. Funny how my washer with mechanical dials last 25 years and the keypad versions die each 4 years for 200 bucks.

    And it is interesting that no water heater seems to have any wire ID. And the chinese have a huge printing plant for UL labels.

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