Hose Bib Question

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by Marc46, Aug 16, 2008.

  1. Marc46

    Marc46 HVAC Contractor

    Messages:
    102
    Location:
    Central Florida
    What do you pro plumbers recommend to remove defective "anti-syphon" valves from a hose bib?

    I am referring to the type used in Florida,........they simply screw on, and have a set screw to keep them tight. House is 16 years old.
    That is the problem!! The recessed set screws are rotted out, and no way can you get a hex key in them. They leak constantly when you turn the bib on, plus I hate the things, as they spew water everywhere when you turn a hose off.

    I have three outside, and removed one years ago by drilling out the set screw.
    The remaining 2 of course, can not be reached with a drill, as the set screw is against the house, at the tightest point, on the bottom/inside area.

    Replacing the bibs, is a PIA in my situation,..........copper pipe sweat connections, and the flange buried under stucco.

    Any ideas?
    Thanks, as I have a couple questions posted on the forum today!

    [​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 18, 2011
  2. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    They are designed to be installed only once and can not be removed without damaging the threads.
  3. Marc46

    Marc46 HVAC Contractor

    Messages:
    102
    Location:
    Central Florida
    The first one I drilled the set screw out successfully,.........and attached a quick-connect type fitting.

    These as I said, leak everytime I turn the water on.
    I was thinking of trying to cut through the brass with a Dremel in a couple of spots, and try to break it off.

    Just thought that some of you "plumber" folks may have an idea that is better than mine.

    Don't really want to break my wall open so I can sweat a new bib on!
    WTH purpose do the things serve unless one is a moron, and leaves a hose laying in stagnant water, and were to lose pressure?

    I hate the freakin' things.
    Maybe I am alone on this one!:D
  4. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,631
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    vb

    The setscrews do not have a hex, they were tightened and then the head of the bolt snapped off to secure them. I cut a "V" wedge on either side of the lockscrew and then remove the piece with the bolt. Then the VB unscrews.
  5. Marc46

    Marc46 HVAC Contractor

    Messages:
    102
    Location:
    Central Florida
    HJ,
    That makes sense, as I remember seeing them with a bolt in them.

    What gives someone a right to dictate breaking off a bolt head,............nevermind, I know the answer. The building and zoning department. They are "protecting" us all.

    Think I could send them a bill? :D

    I understand what you are suggesting, but don't know if I will be able to make that cut where the bolt is.
    Guess my only other option is a couple of spaced cuts on the face,........trying to not hit the threads, and then spread it enough to remove it.

    Needless to say, I will not be putting new ones on, or if I do,.......they will be minus the bolt!:cool:
  6. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    It's just a back flow device, Probably not important. Who cares if half the neighborhood gets sick?
  7. Marc46

    Marc46 HVAC Contractor

    Messages:
    102
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Just to make you feel better, and "possibly" understand what I am saying,............I am on a private well,........not municipal water.

    As I said before,........I turn off my hose bibs, unless I am using them, and roll them up, and disconnect them.They do not lay on the ground.
    Explain to me how that is a danger,.........even to myself on a well.
    It is certainly not a danger to anyone else sir.

    I am not a plumber, I am an HVAC contractor, but you seem to be painting me as a fool.

    There always has to be a "special" person, on every board it seems!:D

    Edit: Do you consider it to be "moronic" to not like hose bibs that spew water all over when they are turned on, and never stop?
    Why would I not want the ability to easily replace them when they go bad as mine have?
    BTW,........don't tell me that they don't go bad as a usual occurrence,........most folks I know feel the same as I do about them.
    Granted my home is 16 years old, but why should I need to knock holes in my wall to repair a leaky "back-flow" device that has been rendered non-replaceable by the building codes? I have no issue if I am able to replace them easily,............as nothing lasts forever.
    It was a simple question, and nothing more.
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2008
  8. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    Well, I'm just speachless here. You win. With such an eloquent argument for why you should not have to abide by the codes you sir, should have been a lawyer. Your talent is wasted. Again I bow down to your knowledge and wisdom. You are indeed, only a danger to yourself.
  9. Marc46

    Marc46 HVAC Contractor

    Messages:
    102
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Let me try again,........without sounding like an attorney.

    What is the best suggestion for removing "faulty, and constantly" leaking when on, anti-syphon valves, on an outdoor hose-bib?

    I would like to replace them with new "non-leaking" valves, and leave them in the state that they can be replaced when needed without knocking out the walls of my home.

    Possibly this will be received better, since I am not defying building codes with this particular question.
  10. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,450
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Great! Contaminate the whole damn aquifer!:eek:
  11. Herk

    Herk Plumber

    Messages:
    547
    Location:
    S.E. Idaho
    The above posters are correct - the integrity of the backflow protection should be maintained. So - the first step in removing the old protection is buying new protection and having it ready to put on when you get rid of the old ones.

    Were you to simply replace the hydrants, you'd find that new hydrants have backflow protection built in, and that they (the Woodfords at least) are rebuildable.

    Try tightening them if you must, until the set screw appears where you can drill it.
  12. toolaholic

    toolaholic General Contractor Carpenter

    Messages:
    874
    Location:
    Marin Co. Ca.
    E Z Boston Baked Beans

    Simple , I'm a welder . Metal cutoff blade in a 4 1/2" grinder. Use a light hand ,2 cuts 180 degrees apart. IM NOT A COP !!!!!:D
  13. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,004
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Most of the time, we just bite the bullet and replace the frost free faucet.
    I means getting to the back side of it so you can put a wrench on it.
    You find the inside wall that it goes into, and cut a square about 8" x 8".
    You can cover that with a plastic access panel, sold at any hardware store.

    I like using the Legend Frost Free faucets, but there are many other brands that work well too. If a hose fits the thread, you are home.

    Faucets with back flow prevention is a good thing.
    The gray matter may have a hard time with the concept, because you haven't gotten sick from your water yet.
    You just need to take a trip where they are very casual about their water. Diarrhea makes for a pleasant trip, as long as you don't die from whatever you are catching.
    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2008
  14. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,631
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    vb

    You can cut the screw out even on the underside it just makes it a bit harder. If you do not remove the screw it will damage the threads on the valve no matter how you remove it.
  15. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    The back flow preventer is required by code in most areas. We don't know if it is required by code in your area, but it is a good idea to have one. You say that YOU always take off the hose, never lay it on the ground. But what about your wife, what about your kids, or the illegal alien who "borrows" you water to wash his bicycle? What about the future homeowner who buys your house? The point is, the codes are written to protect everyone. A code or plumbing practice cannot rely on one "dependable" homeowner to be long-term safe.

    Now, the devices are designed as tamper-resistant for obvious reasons.

    You can try to remove it by drilling out the screw. Another choice is to replace the valve with an anti-siphon bibb, which has a built in, serviceable back flow device.
  16. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    Very well put. One of the biggest culprits is the Miracle Grow feeder that gets left on the hose when the backflow situation occurs. The well argument is specious at best. A broken or leaking pitless adaptor or pump fitting or a faulty check valve can and will cause backflow in the well itself which as Redwood said will pollute the aquifir and possibly ruin the well. The "I am responsible and always take the hose off" argument doesn't fly with me either.
    Here's why. I've been driving for 30 some odd years, never had a moving violation, never had an accident. So I think that I must be a pretty good driver so I think I should be able to drive faster than everyone else.
  17. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,004
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Back flows happen when the city turns off the main to work on it.
    When that happens, it sucks water from the home, and in your case, your hoses if they are in use.

    There have been deaths in the USA when this has happened.
    Somebody, somewhere has a hose ending in a bad spot, the city turns off the main, and now it is sucked into the public water supply.

    This isn't new information.
    It's why you can still drink water from your own home without getting sick. A very novel concept in most parts of the world.

    You ever see those insecticides and fertilizers that connect to a garden hose to spread the poison. You can buy them in Home Depot. You know your neighbors are using them.

    Can somebody explain how this can be a legal product to sell?

    How to Use

    Connect: Shake well before using. Connect sprayer to hose. Turn on water. Spray:

    Cautions

    For outdoor use only. Harmful if swallowed. Causes moderate eye irritation. Avoid contact with eyes or clothing. Wash thoroughly with soap and water after handling.

    http://www.scotts.com/smg/catalog/p...&proId=prod180008&itemId=cat50078&id=cat50008

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 18, 2008
  18. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    watts.com has some very good information and free video on backflow prevention and disasters.
  19. Marc46

    Marc46 HVAC Contractor

    Messages:
    102
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Guys,.......I understand your concerns, and the reason for the code.
    Unfortunately the locations of mine rule out accessing the valve from the inside wall, as one has a marble shower wall opposite it, and the other one has a roman tub sitting on the other side.

    That leaves me with the choice of finding a way to get the defective ones off, or knocking a large access in my exterior stucco, and block, to be able to replace the bibs. Can it be done,.........sure, but I hate to have to go through all of that to replace a simple spin on appliance.
    Yes, I understand that some folks are "idiots", and I guess I understand why they were made non-removable due to that fact.

    Where you guys have me confused though is on the contamination possibility in my situation. My fiancee gets me to haul the hose out there if she needs it for something, and I have no kids,...............also no "illegals" around. I live in a rural area where everyone has 1.5 to 10 acres. I turn off the bib when I am finished, and roll up the hose, and store it in my outbuilding, until the next use.
    Now,..........IF that bib is turned off, and the backflow device is after the valve stem, as these things are,...........how can something in my well malfunction, and draw anything into my house plumbing, or the well itself by that device not being installed?
    Not being a "wiseacre", I just don't understand how that is possible in my specific situation?

    Aren't these things simply to prevent a "vacuum" so to speak from being pulled into the house plumbing if it loses pressure? If the bib is closed, it can't do that,............and even if it was open all it could pull is air with no hose attached. I said before that I am not a plumber, and you are losing me on this part of it.

    Anyway, I will try to cut them with a Dremel, or my 4.5" grinder,.............but I WILL replace them. I just WON'T break the bolt heads off! At least not unless I were to sell the house!:)
    Thanks again.
  20. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,004
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    That's fair.

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2011
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