Hopefully basic question on creating plumbing for softener

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by 606zpx, Jul 10, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. 606zpx

    606zpx New Member

    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    Savannah GA
    Howdy, have lurked but never posted.

    Have 3/4 copper coming into house as supply. I will be locating a softener (have not purchased yet) in my pool pump house. In order to do so, I must run a line out and back from under the house. Hard to say how many feet each way, but probably around 30 feet on each leg.

    When it emerges from the crawlspace it will be under my deck then into the poolhouse.

    Is there any significant disadvantage in using sched 40 pvc 3/4" to create this loop? Note that I live in Savannah, GA so freezing weather will not be a major issue.


    I was probably going to go clack but now they cannot be sold over the net I guess...so will probably get a fleck.
  2. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,053
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    PVC can be used below ground, not above ground except as a stand pipe.
    PVC is affected by heat. The warmer the pipe gets, the less pressure it can take.
    CPVC, PEX or Copper would be ok.
  3. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    IN GA etc. PE (polyethylene) is very common and I would use 1" PE and sch 40 PVC at the softener and back to PE back to the house.

    Terry, if you ever go east, you'll probably be surprised to see PVC out in the sun all over the south.
  4. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,053
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Gary,
    When a homeowner asks a plumbing question here, I don't feel I'm doing them a favor if I instruct them to do something that a plumbing inspector wouldn't approve.
    I'm sure you see lots of hack plumbing in the South.
    But when a homeowner picks up a plumbing permit, then I want the plumbing inspector to speak kindly about me.
    No sense making the homeowner do everything twice either.

    Of course in Central America you can see all kinds of hack plumbing too. That doesn't make me want to copy it though.
    You can't even drink their water like you can ours.

    Last edited: Jul 11, 2010
  5. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    Terry, I've seen plumbing in Bogata, in so called nice hotels that absolutely makes you wonder why everyone down there doesn't have dysentery. Codes and safe plumbing practice are not high up on the to do list in South America but if you really want to see some horror shows take a trip to India
  6. 606zpx

    606zpx New Member

    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    Savannah GA
    The run would not be exposed to the sun at all and under the deck and in the pump house it is pretty cool even in the highest heat o summer.

    Like I said the softener will be in the pump house and the run would be coming from under the house running under the deck and directly into the pump house.

    Also, Gary, why did you say 1" since I have 3/4" coming into the house....I assume the inside diameter of the pipe is the same. Is it a pressure loss issue over the length of the run?
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2010
  7. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    The valve head will most likely be tapped 1" and since you are running about 60' of pipe plus fittings the friction loss through the valve head and the piping/fittings it would be a good idea to run 1" and keep losses to a minimum.
  8. 606zpx

    606zpx New Member

    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    Savannah GA
    Forgot I have an architect relative around here. In my application pvc is acceptable. Will go with the 1" PVC suggestion through. I am going to install metal valves wher it takes off from the house in the event I have a failure though.
  9. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    The OP is a DIYer from GA. In the south PVC is allowed (see his followup post saying so) just about anywhere you want to use it, above and below ground.

    IMO and especially since Wally says there are no national codes, applying codes from another region/area of the country on other areas/regions of the country or, proposing personal favorite materials over others, is at best misinformation. So I don't do that and then I get a lot of grief from plumbers wielding their non national local code books and personal preferences instead of accurate info for that specific poster.

    I suggested PE because for this application it is approved everywhere and it is a much better choice than 10-20' pieces of PVC, especially for a DIYer because it costs the least, there are only two joints one on each end of the run because it is commonly bought in rolls from 100' to 500'. So I propose it to everyone, as I believe everyone advising posters of all kinds here should; the internet's biggest and best plumbing etc. forum that I have told people about for going on 10 years now. :cool:

    I've found that most non urban DIYers (and even some of them) have an individual freedom driven independent streak and do not get permits and therefore do not have inspections for water line plumbing they do in their own homes or on their property. Especially if they have their own well.
  10. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    Georgia is under the IPC. That's the "International Plumbing Code" with local amendments where applicable.

    The OP is a DIYer from GA. In the south PVC is allowed (see his followup post saying so) just about anywhere you want to use it, above and below ground.

    Unless Georgia has amended the IPC to allow above ground use then it can not be.

    IMO and especially since Wally says there are no national codes, applying codes from another region/area of the country on other areas/regions of the country or, proposing personal favorite materials over others, is at best misinformation. So I don't do that and then I get a lot of grief from plumbers wielding their non national local code books and personal preferences instead of accurate info for that specific poster.

    Nobody is applying anything. And there are no local code books. Whatever code the state adopts is it’s code. We use the IPC in NH and Maine as well. Different regions, same code. There are no region specific code books although certain regions do amend the code for conditions. I.E. we have to penetrate the roof with a vent no smaller than 3†in half the state and up north 4†for frost closure reasons.

    I suggested PE because for this application it is approved everywhere and it is a much better choice than 10-20' pieces of PVC, especially for a DIYer because it costs the least, there are only two joints one on each end of the run because it is commonly bought in rolls from 100' to 500'. So I propose it to everyone, as I believe everyone advising posters of all kinds here should; the internet's biggest and best plumbing etc. forum that I have told people about for going on 10 years now.

    It is not approved everywhere nor is it approved for all applications. The user needs to read and understand his states code before blindly following advice.

    Not getting a permit is not an "Individual freedom" It is in fact a misdemeanor punishable by fine.

    Not getting a permit and an inspection leaves the homeowner open to liability should any part of the installation be in violation or cause damage to occur to the property or the property of others including liability when and if the property is sold in the future. Homeowners insurance will not cover damages or personal injury caused by non permitted or inspected plumbing ( wiring either for that matter)
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2010
  11. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,053
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Wally,
    How do you like this for a reply?
    This is my son Jamie singing "No more excuses, no more exuses from you."
    I think he may have gotten that from me.

    [video=youtube;2fDFiYuNqY4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fDFiYuNqY4[/video]
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2010
  12. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    :D




    That's the best sounding vid I have seen of them. Usually the audio comes out messed up on my computer for some reason. Band sounds real tight. How are they doing?
  13. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,053
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    It's a good thing they have day jobs considering that nobody buys CD's anymore.
    The drummer is a painter, the guitarist works at Nordstrom's, the bass player has a music recording studio, and Jamie the singer works as a plumber for me.
    I realized last week that I had about 80 minutes of live footage with three cameras that I hadn't edited yet. These are from two camera's, I was in a hurry to put something up.
    They're playing gigs around town, but they haven't been to LA or Hawaii for a while.

    [video=youtube;2TZpDtSjck8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TZpDtSjck8[/video]
  14. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    It's tough to have a full time day job and try to get something big started. Do they have a manager?
  15. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,053
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Not at the moment,
    There was some management a few years ago, but I don't think they were music industry savvy.
    That's when they were in Los Angeles for a while. They played some clubs there, but they made the arrangements themselves.
    They were playing as openers and such, and after they played the club owners would ask for their autographs and apologize for not having them as part of a big bill.
    A year later they were flown down to play a New Years Party, I guess that was a pretty good party.
    Many times when they play, people just assume that they are a signed band. Even in the beginning, people in Pioneer Square would come up and ask who they really were. Like they were a famous band making a surprise showing. Since I'm the one with the big camcorder, they get allot of the questions like that.
  16. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    You do not know that GA or his county hasn't amended something.

    When you guys say not above ground does that mean that the transition to another material must be made underground? I don't think so. And there is a lot of PVC used as drop pipe that comes up out of the sanitary seal in the well casing and down into the ground off to the house. Are you guys saying that that is not allowed? Are you saying it, sch 40 PVC, can not be used that way or here in his pool house at his softener? If so then I say run the PE to the softener by pass valve and off it to the house.

    I think there' s a copy in the local county library no? Wouldn't any amended version be in the local library where it applies? Wouldn't that be two different codes? A region of the country is more than two states and it isn't the same code when it has been amended.

    As to the use of PE, I said; approved for this application and you say;
    I'll bet it is approved in GA. You'll have to show me what the code says that prevents PE from being used in this application in GA.

    I've had guys say... Only if I get caught.
  17. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,053
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    "Only if I get caught."

    The barefoot bandit felt the same way, only if I get caught, and then mom can sell the rights for the book and movie and make millions.

    Mom's requirements for her son, was that he only stole twin engine planes to crash land. She didn't want her son getting hurt.
    The fact that he was crash landing $340,000 planes didn't bother her. Boys will be boys.

    Harris-Moore is suspected of being responsible for approximately 100 thefts in Washington, Idaho, and Canada, including bicycles, automobiles, light aircraft, and speedboats.

    On July 11, 2010, Harris-Moore was captured just before dawn on the northern Bahamas island of Eleuthera. Local officers picked up his trail in Eleuthera after recovering a 44 foot (13 meter) power boat stolen from a marina on Great Abaco. Harris-Moore was carrying a handgun that he tried to throw away. A police official said the suspect initially attempted to flee but police shot out the engine on his boat. He was taken to Nassau, where he faces possible extradition to the United States.

    "These people that support him, they've never been violated by having him break into their homes or businesses," said Joni Fowler, manager of a cafe on Orcas Island north of Seattle where Harris-Moore is accused of taking as much as $1,500. "Just knowing he has a huge network of supporters makes me really worry about the state of this country." Fowler said she hopes Harris-Moore's arrest and upcoming court appearances will pop his mystique and fame — "once everybody figures out he's no God."

    Like I said earlier, if you want an okay to do whatever, then ask the home depot guy.

    If you're here asking licensed plumbers, you're not going to get the rubber stamp from them and hear that local codes and permits don't mean crap.
    They do mean crap.
    Or you can ask Gary, he doesn't believe in plumbing codes, period.

    Last edited: Jul 14, 2010
  18. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    " Only if I get caught " That pretty much applies to any crime doesn't it? So by that logic if you don't gget caught it must be OK.
  19. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Yeah that's the condition of our society today; anything goes as long as you don't get caught and when you do, blame it on someone else or something in your childhood. To me it's a lack of character and IMO the fault of the parent, most kids today are raised by a mother that refuses to discipline for fear of hurting their child's feelings.

    Back to plumbing codes.
    I believe in health related codes for plumbing, electrical and buildings etc..

    The problem is that to me most residential plumbing, electrical and building codes seem to be based on politics and keeping the trade in business and growing (read making more money), not to protect the health of the population etc..

    I do not believe in many plumbing codes in regards to potable water line materials or their application such as are being applied in this thread.

    They are basically irrational illogical codes and not health related in the slightest.

    Such as PE pipe not being allowed, PVC is OK if buried but not above ground, PVC not inside a house.

    None of that is health related, logical or rational IMO and the opinion of many nonplumber Americans.

    They are all legal products and FDA approved for potable water line use. That is national.

    They have been used for many decades in large multiple state regions of the country if not national and there is no logical or rational reason that homeowners etc. can use them 'here' but as soon as you cross the township, county or state line, or some line the code has been amended on the other side of, you can't use them there or use them the in the same way.

    I say if they are legal products and sold in that area, the population should use them anyway they go together. And if there are no water leaks, yer good ta go on to the next project.

    And if the plumbing code has a factual reason for them not to be used, then the code writers etc. should lobby politicians to ban the sale of those products instead of this after the fact gotchya BS where a plumbing inspector or house inspector says "no good, do it over" based on a hard to understand code books that the average homeowner has not seen and usually never will see if he lives to be a hundred.

    IOWs we should be allowed to use legal products approved by the FDA for that use anyway we/they please as long as the use does not cause others health related problems; such as cross contamination on city water systems due to no backflow check valve on the city service line. And if no backflow prevention device is required in one area, why is it required over that township, county or state line in another area? Isn't it the problem we are being told it is or do the powers that be not care about the health of their citizens?
  20. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    Regardless of what "you believe in" Codes hold the same power as the law. If you want to argue the particular merits of any of the various code sections you are welcome to attend any meeting of your local code review board and you can join the ICC and have your voice heard there also. There are more than health concerns involved in the codes. There is also safety and damage to property. PVC is not approved for outdoor above ground use because sunlight deteriorates the pipe and there is also an issue with the breaking strength and rigidity of the pipe. Codes protect the health, safety and property. There is nothing "political" here at all. Code review boards take the engineering data from a product along with applicable test data and make a determination as to it's acceptance or not. At any rate, arguing about them is tilting at windmills.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page