HELP!! Pump out and I cant get anyone out!

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dvest99

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Our pump is out, as in not filling our tank. Our well is 400ft deep, With a pump at 325ft. The pump is 2 wire, Just power, Pressure switch, and pump. I measured the voltage coming in from utility and got 237 - 245 volts.
I measure the voltage going into the pump wires and get the same.
I disconnect and measure the resitance of L1 to L2 on the pump and get full continuity.
I measure resitance from L1 to ground and get nothing, Same for L2.

I measure amperage with the clamp meter on L1 and get 0, Same for L2.

The pump is not blowing the double pole 30A fuses.

It just not turning on.

The strange thing, Is it has done this before, It will go out, Stay off for 3 - 8 hours and then suddenly decide it wants to work again, Usually once I finally get a hold of someone who might be able to help.

I have called pump people left and right, And can not get one of the 10 plus pump people out here any sooner that weds. I will die if I have to smell un bathed kids for 5 days!!!

Anyone who can help, I will give my oldest bathed childs hand for marriage. :)

***EDIT***
Someone mentioned the pressure tank settings might be important, The pressure tank is a straight tank, No bladder, And the pressure is set to 40/60.
 
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Bob NH

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Full continuity on the pump; full voltage on the pump; but zero amps on the pump. Something doesn't compute.

If you turn off the breaker you should be able to measure the winding resistance without disconnecting anything else.

I suspect an overload open or a bad connection. That will give you full voltage on a digital voltmeter, but as soon as the load is applied, the voltage should go to zero.

So to test this, measure the voltage on the pump side of the pressure switch when the pump is connected.

I suspect that you will get low or no volts.

If you don't get full voltage, start looking for an overload button to push, or a bad connection somewhere between breaker and pump.

You could try connecting to another breaker. In a pinch you can connect to two adjacent single pole breakers.

Do you have any pump protection devices to shut off on low water in the well?

No water in the well will give low but not zero current.

Water rising in the well will allow it to start in a few hours, but could ruin the pump while trying. There may be enough water around to keep it cool and save it but I would not count on it.
 

dvest99

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Another thing that may or may not be a symptom. The pressure tank will be at 60psi and stay that way while no one is using it, Then suddenly, still no one has used the water, the pressure tank will drop to 20-30 psi.

I know this is the case because it happened a couple of times while I was the only one around, Id got to was my hands from working outside and nothing would come out of the faucet.

Bob NH said:
I suspect an overload open or a bad connection. That will give you full voltage on a digital voltmeter, but as soon as the load is applied, the voltage should go to zero.

So to test this, measure the voltage on the pump side of the pressure switch when the pump is connected.

I suspect that you will get low or no volts.

If you don't get full voltage, start looking for an overload button to push, or a bad connection somewhere between breaker and pump.

You could try connecting to another breaker. In a pinch you can connect to two adjacent single pole breakers.

Thank you I will give that a try. Fortunatly it came back on for now. I actually do have another breaker that I can use, However it is a double pole 25amp breaker, Will that work or does it have to be a 30amp?
 
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Master Plumber Mark

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if it came back on--dont touch it...

if it came back on dont touch it.....

it could be something as simple as a defective pressure switch..

do you have a neighbor within 200 feet of your house???..

you could always borow water from a nearby neigbor
if it goes out again...

run a garden hose to their outside faucet....

tie it onto theirs outside faucet
and then tie it on to your outside faucet
shut off the stop at your well tank and then turn on both faucets...

their house will feed your home
and you will have tempporary water till the well man arrives...
 

Bob NH

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If the tank is waterlogged it could be causing rapid cycling that would overload the motor. Some 2-wire motors have internal overload protection which would cause it to shut off until it cools.

Unless you have a very large pump a 25 Amp breaker would probably handle it.

Since you are able to measure current and voltage here is a test that you can run if the pump is running.

While the pump is running. measure the voltage on the load side of the pressure switch against a wire connected to the same side of the main, via an extension cord on another circuit that has no load. Any difference in voltage is the voltage drop through the breaker, wire, and connections on that side of the pump circuit. Do it for both sides. It should not be more than a couple of volts and should be the same on both wires.

If you have a large or unbalanced voltage drop, find out where it is.
 

dvest99

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Bob NH said:
If the tank is waterlogged it could be causing rapid cycling that would overload the motor. Some 2-wire motors have internal overload protection which would cause it to shut off until it cools.

Unless you have a very large pump a 25 Amp breaker would probably handle it.

Since you are able to measure current and voltage here is a test that you can run if the pump is running.

While the pump is running. measure the voltage on the load side of the pressure switch against a wire connected to the same side of the main, via an extension cord on another circuit that has no load. Any difference in voltage is the voltage drop through the breaker, wire, and connections on that side of the pump circuit. Do it for both sides. It should not be more than a couple of volts and should be the same on both wires.

If you have a large or unbalanced voltage drop, find out where it is.

The last time it happened someone looked at it and said the tank was waterlogged. He took a pump to it, Turned on the water and turned off the water pump or something like that, I don't remeber what exactly he did, But it didn't fix the problem like he said it would, Because it happend again the next day.

So more or less I am taking an extension cord from a another 120 circuit, Putting one lead of the multimeter in it and one lead to the load side of the pressure switch and looking for a 240ish voltage while the pump is working?
 

Sammyhydro11

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If you see the pressure drop without running any water you probabbly have a bad check valve at the pump or a leak somewhere. Now if you have a bad tank it only takes a small amount of water to be released in order for that pump to cycle. If this has been happening for a good period of time it has probably caused some damage to that motor.When you turn on a faucet does the switch click on and off rapidly?? Do you know the horse power of the motor?? Take an amp reading when the pump is running. If you read zero amps when the pump stops the motor is more than likely going into thermal over load and the pump needs to be pulled out.

SAM
 

Bob NH

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dvest99 said:
The last time it happened someone looked at it and said the tank was waterlogged. He took a pump to it, Turned on the water and turned off the water pump or something like that, I don't remeber what exactly he did, But it didn't fix the problem like he said it would, Because it happend again the next day.

So more or less I am taking an extension cord from a another 120 circuit, Putting one lead of the multimeter in it and one lead to the load side of the pressure switch and looking for a 240ish voltage while the pump is working?

There are two hot wires in a 240 Volt system. Call them red and black wires (but they may not be colored).

Now if you run an extension cord where the hot wire corresponds to the "red", measure the voltage between that "red" and the "red" on the LOAD side of the pressure switch when the pump is running. If they are both the "red" wires, then the voltage difference (just a few volts) will be the voltage drop between the main panel and the pump.

Repeat the test for the "black" wire run by plugging the extension cord into an outlet with a "black" supply.

If you have good connections, then the voltage differences should be the same for black and red, and should be small. If one is larger than the other, you probably have a bad connection.
 

Sammyhydro11

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Whats wrong with measuring the leads indivudualy at the switch. Better yet measure them right at the well. Wouldnt you want to measure for voltage drop as close to the pump as possible??

SAM
 

Bob NH

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sammyhydro11 said:
Whats wrong with measuring the leads indivudualy at the switch. Better yet measure them right at the well. Wouldnt you want to measure for voltage drop as close to the pump as possible??

SAM

The process that I described is to measure the voltage drop directly, in the range of a few volts. Measuring the load voltage is a less accurate way to determine voltrage drop because it requires taking the difference between two large numbers.
 

dvest99

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As far as I can tell there is no check valve at all between the tank and the pump, When I inquired I was told it is not required for submersible pumps.
No, It takes a while for it to click on when using any wire, Ive never seen it rapid cyclying in all the checking I have done. the motot is 1.5 horse 230v 2-wire. When I take an amp reading and the pump is "Not working" I get 0 amps.

sammyhydro11 said:
If you see the pressure drop without running any water you probabbly have a bad check valve at the pump or a leak somewhere. Now if you have a bad tank it only takes a small amount of water to be released in order for that pump to cycle. If this has been happening for a good period of time it has probably caused some damage to that motor.When you turn on a faucet does the switch click on and off rapidly?? Do you know the horse power of the motor?? Take an amp reading when the pump is running. If you read zero amps when the pump stops the motor is more than likely going into thermal over load and the pump needs to be pulled out.

SAM
 

Gary Slusser

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All submersible pumps have a check valve in or on the outlet of the pump. If it leaks then the pressure in the pressure tank pushes the water back into the well if there is no other check valve in the system. A second check valve can hide leaks in the plumbing between the pump and the second check valve. That causes the pump to come on when no one is using water. So does a leak in the plumbing. Due to the frequent starts, both kill pump motors.
 

dvest99

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sammyhydro11 said:
What do you measure for amps when the pump is RUNNING?

SAM

10 - 11 amps

Well, we found something intresting today. Theres a room in our basement that the previous owners had built. We have been wanting to tear it out for some time now. The power wire (220v 30amp fused) to the pump runs from our cicuit box to the well pump above one of the walls to that room. My sig other and I started tearing the room down today and on one of the hits to the wall with the sledge I saw a flash of light out of the corner of my eye, So we went to investigate, Appearantly on of the 2x4's was being held up by a couple of long 6" galvinized screws, Guess what, One of the screw was drilled thru the middle of the pump power wire. The wire in that area was all black and the screw was parially melted. So we replaced that section of wire and are currently crossing our fingers.
 

dvest99

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Well, That may have had something to do with the problem, However it wasn't the problem.

I installed a Well Pump Protection box that I purchased from a wholesaler here in town and installed it this morning. The well stopped today and the well pump protection box is flashing Overload on the diag lights. Its only got 3 diag lights, Voltage, Underload and overload.

any ideas?
 

Gary Slusser

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Yeah I do, when in a hole, like they say in over your head, stop digging.... and buying 'things' and hoping they magically fix the problem.

Then call a pump guy, well driller or a plumber that knows submersible pumps, they will troubleshoot the system and probably end up pulling the pump. IMO you should be prepared to have them replace it.
 

dvest99

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Well I had the pump guy out, He says the pump is fried, and the pipe has a hole in it to. looks like we have to wait for him to get some pipe though. He says All he had on him was "Poly pipe?". and he doesnt like to use it for anything more than 200ft.
So now we are waiting for him to get some nice heavy galv steel pipe, And it looks like we are going to be w/o water for about a week. Please pray that I survive the smell!!!
 

dvest99

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Well, He says he has to go pickup a new 3 wire 2 hp pump w/ controller to and the soonest he could get out was next monday, He also says my "static water level?" is dipping down to 340ft at times around this area and he is going to drop the pump to 10ft off the bottom to to keep me from having problems in the future.

He seemed to be knowledgable, Unfortunatly Even if he is a screw up I just can't afford to hire anyone else for now and need water. I hate living off of 5gallon things of water I got from wallmart.

All in all this is going to cost me $3,400, Im only praying insurance will help cover some or all of it.

He did write lightning damage on the invoice so that it might be more likely that ins would cover it.
 

Gary Slusser

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I agree, and you won't like your water quality or reduced flow/pressure when the galavanized starts rusting inside. Plus it is much harder to work with and will cost quite a bit more to pull the pump next time and you're limited to someone with a derrick truck to get it to the well to do it. Plus it is going to cost you much more now to install galvanized than a 400' roll of 160 psi rated PE pipe and only two fittings and 4 SS hose clamps.
 
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