Help needed with Dripping Unifit Toilet

[bfbmd]

I am at my wit's end and could use any suggestions possible. Based upon much research, including great help I obtained from the existence of this forum, I purchased a Toto Guinevere. Unfortunately, I have had nothing but trouble with it and it continues being a problem. I have been in touch with Toto as has my plumbing supply store from which I purchased it. This saga has been going on for 3 weeks and I need advice as to whether there is anything else that might be causing the problem.

From the beginning the toilet kept dripping. Initially, it was a slow drip, ever 15-30 seconds, but it would eventually taper off after and 1-2 hours. I had read all about how you can hear the water drip in a unifit, but 1-2 hours later seemed excessive. Tank water level did not appear to be dropping (even with the water suppy to the toilet turned off), but it was a very slow leak. Several days later the leak became non-stop and the tank level did drop, the fill valve kept kicking in, etc. In the meantime, the fill valve started making loud sucking/groaning noises. Toto to their credit agreed to send new parts....fill valve and flush valve.

Got the new parts installed and the toilet still slowly drips into the unifit for hours after flushing. So far the leaking from the tank seems to have stopped and the fill valve sounds normal. We also checked whether the toilet was level front to back and not tilted which could contribute to water leaking over the weir, but the level is perfect. In speaking with Toto about the continued dripping, they agreed that it was not normal. They are working on a new version of the unifit itself (not the toilet) and are willing to have that installed, but it is still in production and won't be ready for at least 2 months. One of the changes in the design is to deal with the dripping noise sound. Apparently, Toto is aware that there can be extensive dripping into the unifit past a short period of time after flushing.

It was also indicated to me that the installation of unifit toilets takes more precision than other toilets and one suggestion was to have the plumber reseat the toilet on the unifit by a 1/4 of inch, but then that suggestion was withdrawn. (Must say, the toilet appears seated on the unifit in a fairly snug manner from what I can see and feel with my hand so that there isn't a lot of play, but this isn't my area of expertise.) I was told that Toto has seen situations where some folks have 2-3 of the same unifit toilet installed, 2 of the toilets don't drip, the 3rd does extensively.

Toto has said that if I don't want to wait for the new unifit, I could pick out a different Toto toilet and have it swapped out, but I should not pick a unifit toilet if I don't want to have the potential drip issue. It was not made clear, however, about whether I could recoup the financial difference between the cost of the Guinevere and a non-unifit toilet.

I am having a hard time understanding why a newly designed unifit will stop the dripping. I understand that they are trying to deal with the noise, but regardless of noise, why should water keep dripping from the bowl for several hours. Do all toilets do this, but we just don't hear it with the non-unifit toilets? I keep thinking that something else must be going on, e.g., a defect in the porcelain itself or the weir.

I picked the Guinevere for numerous reasons, including how it fit into the space I have available and it had the latest double cyclone technology for bowl cleaning on top of flush power. It looks great in my 100 yr old house.

I need to make a decision soon about swapping the toilet out and finding one that will suit our needs or waiting til the new unifit is available. Before making up my mind, I thought I would throw my problem out there to see if any one had run into this before and/or had any other thoughts or suggestions of what might be going on and what we could try. My apologies for the length of this post, but I wanted let folks know all that has been tried and what I have been told.

I appreciate any and all help. Thanks in advance.

 

[Terry]

If the tank loses water, then it's either the flapper, or the seal under the flush valve.
If it's the seal under the flush valve, you might try sanding the inside of the tank where the seal presses down.
Sometimes a small spec can create a path under the seal.

Make sure the fill tube from the fill valve is above the overflow tube, with some air gap. It the tube is too low, it can siphon.

If the fill valve is not shutting off, then it may need replacement.

The dripping normally only happens for less then a minute.

If you have done all of these things, I would consider taking the bowl outside, set it up on blocks, plug the outlet and fill the bowl.

It's not out of the question that you have an internal leak.
With "shipped" toilets, that should always be a consideration.
It doesn't take much of a drop for that to happen.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jadnashua]

"Normal" toilet bowls are all porcelain which is a fairly good sound insulator. The trap portion of a Toto Unifit is plastic, so you can hear water flow through it similar to what you may hear through pvc or abs drain pipes; it's suppressed, but not as much as it would be with an all porcelain system.

If the fill valve or flapper was leaking, then the bowl would constantly be overflowing and you'd hear the sound. One thing that some people experience is if they flush something like dental floss down the toilet...it sometimes ends up with part of it getting caught and acting like a wick. Another thing is if the vent pipe serving that drain is caught in a windy portion of the roof - that wind can cause the pressure in the pipes to fluctuate and you can see that in the water in the bowl moving in (very) small waves. This can also allow some water to be sloshed over the weir and drip down the drain. When you put anything into the bowl, since it is essentially (normally anyways) filled to just overflowing, some will then trickle down the drain over the weir (and through the unifit adapter). This sometimes freaks out people unfamiliar with this in this type of toilet since that same thing happens, but is usually unheard in a 'conventional' toilet. It didn't take me long to ignore that on mine.

With the fill valve and flapper (hopefully) ruled out, what you might be seeing could also be a result of (minor) floor deflection, moving water.

Hopefully, someone will offer some other possibilities and resolve (if possible) your objections to the toilet's characteristics or resolve it, if it is not normal.

My guess is that Toto may be making the revised unifit adapters out of a different plastic, or with a coating, that would help suppress that sound. Again, I have two of them, and don't find it objectionable, but every-one's different. Any toilet can have a problem with the fill valve or flapper, but once that is resolved, it is what it is. Often a fill valve may be the victim of some crud in the water lines that gets knocked off when first installing it. Shutting off the water supply and restoring it almost always dislodges crud.

 

[bfbmd]

Thanks Terry and jadnashua for your suggestions.

Both fill and flush valves were replaced and leaking tank apears to no longer be a problem. Plumber felt around the flush valve seal area of tank and reported that it felt smooth. Fill tube is definitely above overflow tube. Fill valve is working fine.

Water is still dripping for hours after flushing so it would appear the problem is from the bowl on down. Unfortunately, taking the toilet out and checking for an internal leak is not feasible.

Possible wave action caused by vent flow does not seem to be an issue as it drips on the calmest of days and when no discernible wave action.

Floor under toilet was recently reinforced altho the plumber did have to still shim a bit. However, used a level from front to back and it looks level. Even if it were not level, I would think water in the bowl would leak out over weir fairly quickly and reach an equilbrium...not still be dripping 1-2 hours later.

Am going to play around with draining the tank and the toilet bowl and see if I can hone in on this better and retest for possible leaks. Thanks again for the suggestions.

 

[Terry]

Am going to play around with draining the tank and the toilet bowl and see if I can hone in on this better and retest for possible leaks. Thanks again for the suggestions.

Turn off the water to the toilet,
Flush the water out of the tank

Refill the bowl with water from a bucket.
It can only get so full.
Mark the water level and leave overnight.

If there are any toilets nearby, they can affect the water level though.
That's why the best test is to pull and isolate.

 

[SAS]

I had a similar problem with a Toto Drake that I installed several years ago (although, since it does not have the plastic Unifit, the sound may not be as loud). Here's a copy of the email I sent to Toto and the response I received:

I have just installed my second Drake toilet. The first one went fine, so I ordered a second. This one has been more problematic. Everything is installed and seems to work fine, except that I hear an intermittent dripping noise from the bottom of the toilet. It sounds as if a drop of water every minute or so is dripping into the waste line. The noise occurs even if the top tank is empty and the water turned off, so I know that it isn't coming from the flapper - plus you can here that it's coming from the bottom.

Any suggestions? What, if anything, would cause water to drip from the bottom? There's no evidence that it's dripping onto the floor - in fact it sounds very much like it's dripping into a pipe.

Response from Toto:
The water dripping is from the bowl into the drain pipe. The fill valve is supplying a bit too much water to the bowl during the filling cycle.

We have a water flow restrictor that is easy to install and will fix the dripping noise. Provide your address and i'll send it, no charge.

I did install the flow restrictor and it improved but did not totally resolve the issue. It's the toilet in the bathroom off of the master bedroom and I used to lie in bed listening for the drip until I fell asleep. At some point it either stopped dripping or I stopped listening. In any case, I would ask the Toto rep to send you one and give it a try. Also, I suspect that since I had the problem on 1 of 2 installations and Toto has told you that the Unifits have this problem in some installations and not others, that if you swapped out your Guinivere for another of the same model there would be a good chance that you would not have the drip anymore (but that's just my hunch).

Have you put dye in the tank to make sure water isn't leaking from the tank?

 

[bfbmd]

I wanted to get back to folks about what I have discovered after all the suggestions of testing out this toilet to determine the cause of the dripping.

1) At Terry's suggestion, I turned the supply line off, drained the tank (sponged out the remainder of the water after flushing) and filled the bowl to the level where it normally fills. I gave the toilet one minute to reach equilibrium, then marked the bowl at the front (i.e., the shallow end...easier to see a water level change) and a mark to the side. Checked the bowl over the next hour. At 15 minutes, you could still hear water dripping, even though there is no water in the tank! Water level down about 5/16 inch in front 1/8 toward side. By 1/2 hour, down 7/16 inch in front, 3/16 to side, no dripping. It seemed to settle by 30 minutes. Letting it go overnight didn't seem to affect it much. I've repeated this a couple of times with more or less the same results and heard dripping up to 20 minutes. I've even waited 1/2 hour after draining the tank before filling the bowl so that any water dripping down inside right after a flush can be ruled out. The dripping sound is constant in the beginning, every couple of seconds. When heard at 15-20 minutes, its every 20-30 seconds.

2) Next I decided to go after the tank. Maybe it was a problem even though it had a new flush valve and it was difficult to ever see a decrease in the level of the water in the tank with the supply line shut off. I removed all water from the bowl and just had water in the tank. At 15 minutes there was small pool of water in the very bottom of the bowl. Sponged that out. 15 minutes later, more water in bottom of bowl. Sponged again. This went on for at least 1 1/4 hours. Repeated the experiment, periodically removing water but saving it. After a little over 6 hours had over 2/3 cup of water, yes, it was still leaking. Water was can be seen dribbling into the bottom from the siphon hole.

I also ran the experiment with the water supply turned off and no water in the tank (everything flushed and sponged out) and no water in the bowl. I was curious to see how much water collected after a flush. Within first 15 min, there was a little pool of water, which I sponged out. After that, there was no more water to be seen in the bottom.

3) In all my experimenting, I discovered that there is a hole/divot in the bottom of the bowl. I can't see it, but I can certainly feel it. It is at the juncture of where the bottom of the bowl starts to curve up into the beginning of the trap where the smooth glaze of the bottom gives way to rough feel. The hole feels about 1/4 inch in diameter (can't tell how deep because I can't feel the bottom) and there is a very pointy bump of porcelain that sticks about 1/8 of an inch up at the back edge of the hole/divot.

4) In my talks with Toto, they have asked that the new flush valve (this is the second one) be removed and inspected. Also, that the bottom of the tank where the flush valve sits be felt for bumps, particles, etc., and inspected for cracks. They also wanted silicone to be put down and the flush valve reattached. I offered to do the flush valve myself and not call a plumber, but I didn't want to do the silicone. Flush valve looked good, didn't feel any bumps or specs, and saw no cracks. However, I am not a plumber. Reattached flush valve, leaking from tank into empty bowl was the same with water pooling over long perios of time.

I'm looking for guidance regarding a few things:

Is it normal for water to continually drip from a bowl (no water in the tank) for 15-20 minutes after being filled? The toilet has been checked and it is level.

Is it common practice to add silicone to a flush valve to try to make a seal? If so, would you be worried that you had to do it to a toilet right out of the box?

Is it normal to have a "hole" as described in #3 and pointy bump?

I appreciate any and all suggestions that folks can give me.

 

[Ian Gills]

Is it normal for water to continually drip from a bowl (no water in the tank) for 15-20 minutes after being filled? The toilet has been checked and it is level.

The only time I heard a drip in my toilet (not a Toto) was due to a leaking flapper but from what you have and what you have explained I do not know what is going on.

However I do know that if we pee in a toilet at night, and do not flush to avoid waking anyone up, then you can clearly here the excess going down the drain. My drain pipes are cast iron, but if you have (noisy, cheap) PVC drain pipes I would not rule out hearing a drip or two as the trap filled and for some time thereafter.

 

[Terry]

I don't silicone flush valves in.

In the thousands of one-piece toilets that I have sold, I have had a few with a speck under the seal, that a wipe with sandpaper or Emery cloth fixed.

It's very rare.

Anything at the bottom of the bowl, if it was leaking, would drain down to that point in the bowl.
Since the water stays above, that's not it.

If you haven't sanded the inside of the tank where the flush valve sits, I would do that now.
I speck of something would hold up a seal and allow a path for the water.

You just loosen two screws, pivot the tabs and lift out.