Help -- Leaky Toilet, Broken Flange, Soft Floor

[mguerrero]

Need some assistance here.

I have a broken toilet flange on top of a vinyl floor. The toilet seeps water around the base. A plumber came to try and fix the leak. He used two wax rings, but it still leaks. I called him back and he said the floor was too soft around the toilet, and that there was nothing he could do.

The flange has a metal plate on the left side because the groove for the bolts broke. The right side is also broken, so I'm thinking I either need to replace the flange or put one of those metal flange rescue things over it.

I've pulled the toilet off and put it back on with new wax a couple times, with no luck. I've used two rings of wax so far, but it seemed like it kept the toilet too high off the floor with that much wax. I also used one of those waxless seals (Fluidmaster 7500

I'm really not sure what the next step is other than pulling up the vinyl, which is on top of another layer of vinyl (new flooring), and try to level the floor underneath. That will take me forever, and I'll run the risk of tearing the new vinyl, so I'm hoping I have another option.

I've also read about using shims to avoid wobble, but haven't tried that. The toilet doesn't seem to wobble too much when secured to the floor with the no-wax seal. Was going to try a single wax ring next. Because the vinyl is loose around the flange, when there were two rings on it the wax pushed up under the flooring.

Any help/suggestions are appreciated.

 

[Basement_Lurker]

That flange is pretty warped, especially with that metal strip there. You will have a tough time getting a good wax seal with a setup like that, and once you do set the toilet, and it rocks, you are most likely breaking whatever little seal you have.

 

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[Gary Swart]

A soft floor would indicate rot. There is no point trying to repair the flange until the rotten floor is replaced. Most likely both the finished floor and the sub floor are affected, so it will be a pretty major job. You will have to cut back until you are completely free of rot, then fill in new wood. There is no band-aid quick and easy fix for a rotten floor.

 

[hj]

flange

You need to back up further so we can see the pictures better. Unless it is the angle or the closeness, but it appears you have an offset collar, and the WORST type of offset at that. If so, you cannot use a single wax ring with it because it will not cover the entire perimeter. You have to cut one, open it up and then cut a piece out of another one to fill in the void. If they needed the offset collar, then a waxless adapter will not work. If they did not need it, then it should be removed and a regular one installed in its place.

 

[Shacko]

Toilet Flange

I have to agree with the other post, you have to take pictures of the whole flange so we can get a good look at it, pictures of the floor are of no use.

 

[mguerrero]

I think you guys are right that the floor and the flange are both issues I'm going to have to deal with. I put new vinyl down about 6 months ago, and the floor guys just used the same wax as before and put some caulk on it. I'm sure that's when it started leaking. And now that the floor is soft, I think I'm going to have to peel the new vinyl back, cut out a big square of the old vinyl, deal with the floor, level it, replace the flange, then put the new vinyl back. Damn...

And I'm pretty worried about damaging the wastewater pipe when I remove the old flange. The screws are 15-years old, rusty, and stripped. I'm afraid I'll have to cut it out with my dremmel and will screw up the PVC pipe.

What do you guys think about using one of those flange repair rings that cover the entire flange and bolt down to the floor?

 

[Herk]

The proper fix is to fix the floor first. That means cutting off the flange and replacing the floor, then the vinyl, then the new flange. There are a number of ways to go about getting a new flange in and some are better than others, and I'm sure there will be as many opinions as there are posters.

A properly set toilet should never leak. That means that the flange has to be on top of the floor for one thing, and it appears that your flange is sitting just a bit below the top of the floor, as if a thin particle board was set around it.

The screws shouldn't be a problem. When cutting off the flange, you can pull the ring up with a claw hammer - you don't have to worry about hurting the floor you're pulling off and the screws will just rip out of the rotten wood.

I have very little patience with the floor-covering guys who think they're expert enough to set toilets. They're jerks, plain and simple. I've seen far too many floors less than a year old that were destroyed by the floor covering guys setting the toilet. As you may have already gleaned, they don't have much of a guarantee.

 

[mguerrero]

In the first pic, you can see the subfloor under the 2 layers of vinyl. The dark circle is all damp and depressed. This isn't wood, it's some kind of concrete like material (gypsum maybe?) with some kind of paper on top of it (almost like sheet rock is wrapped).

The second picture really shows the dark part. Maybe the paper is from the back of the original vinyl or something...not really sure. Anyway, how the heck to I fix this? Do I have to dig out all the moist parts and then fill it?

 

[Herk]

OK, now I'm confused. You say the floor is depressed where it's wet. Is it soft?

Is there a basement under this or is this a concrete slab?

I know of all kinds of materials, but with a vinyl floor I expected particle board.

Is this a house? Apartment?

Particle board usually swells when wet. If someone has remodeled with some odd kind of flooring, it would help to know what it is. Cement board isn't normally used under vinyl.

I'm trying to understand how the floor can be "depressed." Perhaps this is a floor-leveling compound. They can dry white or brownish-colored and are usually very hard and water resistant. (Not water proof)

 

[mguerrero]

It is more like wet sand than soft. And chunks of this stuff break off. This is a condo, 3rd floor, and the material is supposed to be for fire protection (and noise dampening I think). This is not wood. When wet, it's the consistency of wet sand. I had this in my other condo in NJ. This place was built in the early '90s.

I don't know what's underneath, haven't dug out the sandy stuff to check. But concrete shouldn't react to water like this that I'm aware of. This is stuff you cant' really drive nails into because it is more like concrete/rock. Again, this might be sitting on top of wood, but it's definitely not wood. And I don't know how deep it goes without digging it out.

EDIT: Just took another look at it. Definitely not wood, and the damp parts are like wet sand. The stuff I thought was paper was the glue from the first vinyl--so no paper, just the concrete-like stuff that falls apart when it gets wet.

EDIT #2: I really think this is some kind of Gyp-crete stuff

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[Herk]

I should think gypcrete would look and act like concrete, though perhaps not quite as hard. Once dried out and cleaned out you should be able to use a floor leveler like Henry's, assuming there isn't a wooden subfloor beneath that's damaged too. Gypcrete is often used when in-floor heat lines are present, so I'd find out about that before doing anything serious to the floor that could damage them (such as chiseling out old gypcrete). I still wonder if it isn't a coat of floor leveler, perhaps a quarter inch thick.

At any rate, the flange should be replaced. A competent plumber should be able to do it if he has the right tools. I know I'd love to have the Pipe Parana. (Too bad they couldn't spell piranha!)

 

[mguerrero]

Subfloor found...subfloor damp...

 

[khali]

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[hj]

Something is wrong with your links now. It brings up a "Hurricane Electrical Services" site and says the pictures are either not there or blocked from viewing.

 

[Gary Swart]

You're in a condo? Then you had better get professionals to make the proper repairs. You are in danger of liability problems if this leak damages the units below you. Most condos I am aware of prohibit DIY on plumbing, electrical, a building repairs. You appear to be trying to find a cheap, simple way out of a serious problem, and it just going to happen.

You don't want a soft floor go too long before making your repair. Pictures people send in.