Help Choosing Toilets For New Construction

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by JBreits, Oct 4, 2007.

  1. JBreits

    JBreits New Member

    Messages:
    3
    We are in the middle of selecting all plumbing fixtures for our new home.

    We are usure which toilets to purchase. Our current home has Crane toilets that have had to be plunged many times over the past four years. We really want to avoid this in the future.

    We are really only looking at gravity-fed, 1.6 gallon,round front, and normal height (not comfort height).

    The toilet that was included in our bid allowance is the Gerber Viper. I saw an online deomonstration video and it looked pretty good to my novice eye. The latest MaP report shows it flushes 600 grams which I take is pretty good?

    However, the consultant at the plumbing supply store says she hates her Viper because she thinks you have to hold the lever down for it to flush all the way. She said, in her opinion, Kohlers flush better, including the Wellworth, which has a low MaP rating.

    From what we know at this point based mostlye on price and looks, we have it narrowed down to these options:

    Gerber Viper
    Gerber Allerton (from the Allerton suite)
    Kohler Pinoir
    Kohler Memoirs

    We are using the Memoirs suite in our powder room and would like a toilet that matches. We think the Allerton would be close enough to the Memoirs if price and performance were right. The Pinoir, to me, looks to be nearly the same as Wellworth with a little different look.

    Anyone have any opinions on these 4 toilets?

    Thanks,
    JBreits
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2007
  2. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,387
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    Have you read Terry's Report on Low Flow Toilets? Just go to the home page and follow the link. Whatever you do, stay away from Big Box store toilets.
  3. JBreits

    JBreits New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Yes, I have read his report. It's obvious that the favorite is TOTO. I'm not sure it's in the price range and we weren't told it was an option by the plumb supply store.

    I haven't found much information on some of these toilets so I was just wondering if anyone else had information about them.
  4. Furd

    Furd Engineer

    Messages:
    446
    Location:
    Wet side of Washington State
    I bought Toto Carlyles based upon Terry's report and the looks of the toilet. I wanted one-piece toilets for their ease of cleaning and I liked the "lines" of the Carlyle, i.e. not showing the contours of the internal trapway.

    Although I occasionally do have to plunge (I think it is because my "waste" is sometimes too big and too hard) I wouldn't have any other toilet.

    Toilets are a necessity of life and it makes no sense to try to economize in this area.

    Just my opinion. ;)

    [​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2009
  5. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,387
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    I just installed a Toto Dartmouth and I am very impressed. I truly believe that in low flow toilets you get what you pay for. Sure I could have gone to a HD and paid alot less than I paid Terry for the Toto and saved a 300 mile drive, but I don't consider toilet problems as a favorite pastime. I wanted one that will last and serve me for many years, and I believe this unit will do that. There are times when we need to bite the bullet and step up to quality at a quality price.
  6. JBreits

    JBreits New Member

    Messages:
    3
    I figured I'd get several advice posts to buy a TOTO.

    Anyone have any information about any of the toilets I originally posted about?
    If so, I'd find it very helpful.

    Thanks,
    JBreits
  7. SteveW

    SteveW DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,053
    Location:
    Omaha, NE

    I agree with the posts above - just bought a Toto Soiree from a local plumbing supply house (since I live 1500 miles from Terry!).

    If you really want reliable performance and want to be able to retire your plunger, heed what folks are telling you. I'm sure Toto isn't the only "good" brand, but from what I read, it seems to have really good quality control during manufacturing. For example, somehow Toto seems to have largely prevented the problem of "slumping" of wet clay in the trapway, which plagues some other manufacturers, and which leads to clogging problems down the road.

    In the big scheme of things, it just doesn't seem worth it to me to try to save a few bucks on toilets when building a house. If you chose wisely, you will probably never have to replace them. If you chose less wisely, you'll end up putting up with bad performance
    for a good while until you finally bite the bullet and pay to have them replaced.

    Incidentally, don't be put off by the list prices at the Toto web site. It lists the Soiree, with Sanagloss, for $850 - I bought mine locally for $***. Still not cheap, but a whole lot more palatable (if it makes sense to use that term for a toilet...)

    [​IMG]
    TOTO Soiree pedestal lav, faucet and toilet suite
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2009
  8. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,303
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    For a starter round bowl toilet I like the Toto Drake CST743S or the WaterSense Toto Drake CST743E

    They also make them in elongated, which I will only have in my home.
    I never understood why anyone would want a round bowl.

    Elongated
    CST744S
    CST744E

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2009
  9. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,387
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    It would appear you are seeking a cheap toilet. There are plenty to choose from, and who knows, you may get lucky and find one that doesn't have to be plunged on a regular basis. Big Box Stores have lots of choices. You know, there may be some reasons why so many of us promote the Toto. :rolleyes:
  10. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,303
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    [​IMG]
    American Standard Champion quality control

    [​IMG]
    Factory chipped Champion lid that has been sanded, reglazed and sold at a home center.
    Why throw away broken lids when you can sell them?

    [​IMG]
    The leaning American Standard Cadet 3 bowl. I guess that it wasn't crooked enough to be thrown into the reject pile.
    Just put this in a nice box and sell it.
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2009
  11. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,450
    Location:
    Connecticut
    It's funny but all the toilet brands you mentioned are ones that I stopped installing years ago because they were junk.

    They may have changed their act but I'm not one to keep checking manufacturers and see if they have started getting better...

    I'll stick with what I know is good!
    Toto!
  12. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,387
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    It is really unfortunate that while the average person will keep up with changing times on many things, when it comes to toilets they the only names they know are brand names from the 1930 and 40s. Names like Kohler, American Standard, Gerber, and etc.. They don't know how these companies have slipped with quality control and do not represent state of art for the 21st century. Many of these folks have never even heard of Toto, so take home toilets with the once reliable name brand from the junk dealers and then are plagued with quality. They think that clogged toilets are just the price have to pay to have a low flow toilet, not realizing that it is possible to have a toilet that will seldom if ever clog, will be inexpensive to maintain with parts commonly available. I would apply the old adage, "Penny wise and pound foolish" to this. If there is a fault with Toto, I would say it is they do not promote their product to the general public enough.
  13. gusherb94

    gusherb94 Member

    Messages:
    124
    Location:
    chicago/nw IN
    yeah toto should market more and on tv it's getting annoying having to explain to everyone what toto is. i always get that three eyed look when i mention toto.
  14. gusherb94

    gusherb94 Member

    Messages:
    124
    Location:
    chicago/nw IN
    then people think toto's some no name crappy brand cuz they never heard of it then i have to pull out a computer and show them toto's website and my videos.
  15. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,450
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Funny but there is a supply house I often go to when I need a Toto...
    They carry Toto, American Standard, Kohler, Porcher, Great John, Gerber, Gerberit Wall Mount Toilets, St Thomas Creations, & Sani Plus-up Flush Toilets
    And probably a few they don't list on their line card...
    Well stocked in any case...

    Why is it when I ask for a Toto Drake they always say, "You want the good toilet?"

    They Know!:D
  16. gusherb94

    gusherb94 Member

    Messages:
    124
    Location:
    chicago/nw IN
    what i said about the three eyed look that's the relatives and people i know that i get that look from. the supply house i go to the counter people's eyes light up whenever i mention toto:D.
  17. SewerRatz

    SewerRatz Illinois Licensed Plumber

    Messages:
    1,705
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    I have heard good things about the St Thomas Creations. Myself I like to keep it simple and stick with the good old Kohler wellworth. I never had any troubles with them no call backs saying that they are having flushing issues or anything of that sort.
  18. gusherb94

    gusherb94 Member

    Messages:
    124
    Location:
    chicago/nw IN
    i tried out the wellworth about a year ago for 9 months no one ever clogged it but it often smeared and left murky water.
  19. achutch

    achutch New Member

    Messages:
    193
    Location:
    Vermont
    I didn't know about the Toto Drake (or much about Toto at all) until I read about it here. I have only seen 3 Toto toilets installed (one of them mine) in this area. I can vouch for the fact that my Drake is everything the professionals here say that it is.

    I can also vouch for the fact that those toilets from big box stores tend to have flaws or defects, and can speak from experience, because I also have a Cadet 3 which while works perfectly well, is not flawless (and I had to return 2 bad bowls to the store and have boxes opened so I could find one that was acceptable) and has some cosmetic defects.

    I can understand why a professional would not want to install a product that comes out of the box with defects or lacks uniformity from bowl to bowl in the rim holes (which explains why the few Cadet 3's that I have encountered seem to flush a bit differently -- some splash more).

    My guess is that most people don't know that Toto exists, and that the best they can do is shop at the box stores (and go home with Crane in a Box, like I saw on several peoples' shopping carts on my first visit to out new Lowe's last Friday).

    If I were to replace the Cadet 3 (and since it works and it hasn't failed I won't at this point), I would go with another Toto, perhaps try an Aquia, or one with the Double Cyclone.

    achutch in Vermont
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2009
  20. SewerRatz

    SewerRatz Illinois Licensed Plumber

    Messages:
    1,705
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    The big box store do not carry grade A water closets. They get their hands on Grade B and Grade C water closets.

    Grade A = Flawless
    Grade B = Flaw that is unseen to the naked eye but can affect the operation of the water closet.
    Grade C= physical defect that can be seen by the naked eye.

    I had a home owner that called me to install 6 new water closets in their home. They got a great deal on them from the big box store. When I opened the water closet bowls 5 out of the 6 had a noticeable twist to the bowl. The 6th bowl was missing the holes for us to bolt up the tank to. All of them where Grade C that she only paid 50 bucks each for. As the saying goes you get what you pay for.
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