Help, cast iron install questions. Kohler villager

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Jsmallberries

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5' wide x 8' long bathroom, slab on grade, the tub goes against the back wall, see photos.

Left side and across the back of the tub(60" side) are concrete block exterior walls, no access. On the right side, I can access through a bedroom enough to reach in to the drain assembly

Overview.jpg
I need to stand the tub on end to get it into the bathroom, with the drywall removed the room is 60.5", while the tub specs say 60". the crate has to be removed to get it through the doors.

The trap doesn't line up so I was going to replace it, but there is limited access and the end of the PVC drain is covered in tar pitch. See photos

The install specs say do not use a ledger, the tub has feet that is rests on.

1 How can I lower it down in this tight space?
2 If we do manage to get it lowered, how does one slide a 330 lb tub on metal feet across tile and concrete?
3 Is replacing the drain assembly with brass a good idea, is is possible in this situation? or stay with PVC
4 Anyway to clean tar pitch off PVC drain pipe?

Guess that's it for now, any help will be appreciated
 

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Lowering it, do it carefully, so you don't chip the porcelain.

I am a diyer so, you are getting what you paid for advice wice.

I put in the same tub and moved it around with a typical hand truck.

To get it in place, get a second set of hands, preferably ones attached to a strong body.

Once in place I used a couple of straps around the tubs and a few of pulleys to lift and set the tub. I had to shim under the feet on the bottom of the tub to get it level and to prevent it from rocking. and I did not get it right on the first try.
(the pulley's i used to lift the tub to get the shims in place and to work out the plumbing, it's a lot easier to lift the tub than to use prybar through the wet wall and opposite wall. if I had an arm under the tub I would just put a few 2 x 4's under the tub just in case the the pulleys or straps failed) Once the tub is set the strap are easy to pull out too.

The more experienced people on here will tell you need to have a ledger board on the back wall. You can use one but it really is not needed. Trying to get the ledger just right so it's just supporting back ledge of the tub over its full length and getting the tub level is going to take many tries. All the weight (tub, water and occupants) is supported by the 4 feet on the bottom of the tub. Also do not shim under the apron either. After the tub is set and leveled there should be a small gap between the apron and floor. It will normally be covered by tile that gets put down. If you floor is really out of level than you have to get creative to hid the gap.

Your drain I would try to figure out before setting the tub and then make the small adjustments after the tub is in place. I assume there is a tap below the slab. I got the drain the overflow attached to the tub when the tub was in place but not set and leveled. I also think that tub requires a special pipe for the overflow because it is more angled than most tubs.

Once the tub is set and leveled and the drain and overflow are attached then you get it connected to the drain. You most likely will have to make multiple glue joints at once.

If you can get access from the other side of the wet wall that will make life easier then trying to work from in the tub and down the wet wall. If you are double or triple jointed then either way will be easy.
 

Terry

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The tub drain needs to go, and a new one installed. You will be getting access some way for the new one. You can go brass in the floor. It does give you more options for lining it up to the new tub. I've been using glue up drains for a while now, so I tend to measure well and go for it.

My normal install on a cast is to drop it down the wall, but that requires an open stud bay on the far end.
You can also rotate the tub in.

I prefer using a ledger board on my installs. I don't have a Kohler rep giving me a hand on installs, and would love to see them do one with me watching.

The moment the tub leaves the crate, it becomes almost impossible to move around. I have a hard time believing that your doorway is less than 15"

accord_wild_03.jpg


A tub drain ready for a tub install.

Placing 2x4's on the floor lets you get a hand under the tub if you need to shift it around a bit for the install. I place them near the edge where I can pull them out.
 

Jsmallberries

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Thanks for the replies,

As for the crate, this had a top and bottom that was strapped, delivered on a pallet, not sure I could move it in the crate it came in. thinking hand truck with straps, once in the bathroom, that's where I have a problem, there is no open stud bay, I could make one, this is becoming a major headache. Facing the tub in the area it needs to be there is not way to hold it, if I have helpers on each side to lower it, then it has to slide, doesn't look like something that will slide easily, especially on the tiled floor, just out of view,

The drain, I'm guessing to dig out below the tar for some clean pipe, the drain is up against the back of the slab
 

Jsmallberries

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Kohler instructions are conveniently for open stud bays on all 3 sides with full front access not limited by space constrictions, basically, make sure it's level and simply shim the feet, explain how to do that w/o access.

The "crate" just a strapped top and bottom would never fit in the bathroom as it extends 2 inches past the tub dimensions.

May frame out a wood mock up to do a practice run, I picture having the tub wedged and unable to move it.

As for the drain,

What is the best way to replace(only)? Dig it out below the tar pitch for clean pipe to attach to?

Is it possible there is no clean pipe before the p-trap?

Do I need to use the drain assembly kohler recommends? K-7160-TF or PVC will be fine
 

Reach4

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May frame out a wood mock up to do a practice run, I picture having the tub wedged and unable to move it.
Good idea. I have never done anything close. From Terry's drawings, I envision the tub drain-side up with apron toward the door before you start rotating down. I see the right front apron corner having to fit between studs as you rotate.
 
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Cast iron on concrete does not slide easily. A sheet of masonite makes it easier. Also nice to put masonite down so you don't scratch or chip the tub as easily.

One of the Kohler drain kits comes with a bent piece of PVC pipe that goes between the overflow and the tee where is connects to the drain from the tub. You could bend a straight pvc pipe with a heat gun or torch if you are careful. PVC pipe is cheap. If you want to be really safe fill it with sand then heat and bend and let it cool. Helps to prevent the pipe from collapsing. The pipe Kohler supplies still needs to be cut to length and glued. It's not a big bend but enough that a straight pipe or any angle fitting does not work.

As for connecting to your plumbing, dig out the tar and see what you have. Doing this before the tub is in place is much easier. you may have to remove the current trap put a new one in place to get thing to line up correctly.
 

Jsmallberries

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Masonite sounds like a good idea but won't the four supporting feet sink into the Masonite over time causing the tub to "sink" whatever the thickness of the Masonite is, affecting the drain connections? Also don't think it a good idea to have non treated wood directly on a concrete floor. Maybe i'm over thinking this.....

Manufacturers install instructions specifically states " the bath must be supported by the feet, Do not support the bath by the rim" which I assume means do not to use a ledger board. They are not saying it's optional.

So if not needed, how would it help to use one and doesn't that void any warranties

Also reading though other posts, one poster stated installing this tub is a one person job? 316 pounds of dead weight, how can one person move this around unless they are using some type of mechanical lifting device? What am I missing here, Took 2 people to lift if off the pallet and that was difficult.

Onwards and upwards, hopefully
 

hj

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quote; Also reading though other posts, one poster stated installing this tub is a one person job?

I have installed HUNDREDS of cast iron tubs by myself. and without an lifting device. And, no, I am not some 400# weight lifter.
 

Jsmallberries

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HJ,

I'm sure you do, I am amazed, I can't picture how you manage that.

As in my situation, there really wasn't a "crate" just top and bottom banded wood covers . I removed the bands to check for damages when it was first delivered, would your process work without a crate?

I can use a hand truck with straps to get it in the bathroom, can't see how to turn and lower it from there. Even with a crate, I can still only enter vertically and I still end up with the 30" side down. Tub and crate wouldn't fit parallel to tub anyway

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

And Bill, thanks for the Masonite idea, that would really help to slide it, if I make it to that point
 

hj

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you have to remove the crate before you take the tub into the room. It is easier to do it than to try to describe, it but suffice it to say, it is a lot easier on the back than trying to stand the tub up then slide it down into place.
 
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The images in the link Reach4 posted are pretty clear on how the tub gets laid down. one thing to keep in mind is that it is a tight fit. The tub is 60" long the opening is probably 60.5" wide. The wall where the front apron of the tub is coming down in needs to be open (The diagonal of the Kohler Villager tub, top left to bottom right is 61.6"). You can install a stud or blocking in this area after the tub is plumbed and set to support drywall or backerboard, but it needs to be open to set the tub.

Moving the tub on a hand truck is pretty easy if it's secured to it. Take it off the crate and use cardboard or something between the tub and hand truck to protect the tub. I had the front apron against the hand truck.

Laying down the tub you need to be carefully, but just take your time. It will get what looks to be jammed at some point. Support under the high end of the tub and move the low end of the tub toward the wall. and repeat till is down. If you don't support the high end it could come down quickly. I am sure the guys who install these a regular basis had learned/figured out an easy way to do this safely. It's a 300+ lbs tub it will be a little challenging at times.

If all else fails remove a few stubs on one end and give yourself more room and then put the studs back.
 

Jsmallberries

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Ended up calling a plumber for the install, as I felt I had one chance to set it right. He stood it up on end, out of the crate, on a hand truck, positioned it as close as possible to the final location, and angled it down with the weight supported by the opposite wall, pushing down and pulling up and worked it down the wall. He needed assistance at one point and towards the end, he was lying on his back kicking the front of the tub violently to "coax it in, as it had to clear the existing floor tile. I would have never done that for fear of damaging the surface. It wasn't pretty....

Couple of observations/questions,

He never checked the floor for level, I asked him, his reply, once it's in it won't move. Specs state how important it is to be level, especially with no access after it's in to do that. Luckily I had poured a self leveling concrete and had leveled it days before, it had been app 1/4" lower towards the wall

He used the cheapest plastic drain assembly, see photo. Once it's installed and leak tested does it really matter?

He didn't re-seal the recessed slab opening that had previously been sealed with a pitch tar substance, I asked him about it and he said he never seals them, never had a problem. I do have access, I feel it needs to be re-sealed, as it is an insect entry point(termite). What product to use?

Recommended by wife's brother in-law, so I "assumed" certain procedures would be followed and I didn't think I needed to specify exactly what I wanted up front, which is my fault, as I usually do all repairs and remodeling myself.

Tuib in.jpg
 

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Terry

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I also uncrate in place with the tub standing on end, and then let the tub drag itself downward, pulling every so often when it catches a stud on the far wall.

tub_install_4.jpg


In new construction I never bothered checking for level, as it was always level anyway.
When I started going back and doing remodel, I found out the hard way that yes, it's a good idea to check for level.
A lot can happen over the years. Foundations move, wood sags, stuff happens.
The Geberit trap looks a lot like that too, and I sometimes install those too. I think you are okay with that.
I also get on the floor and using my legs may push them in. I like to cover the tub where I do that. If you look at the picture above, you will see a 2x4 on the floor. This lets me get my fingers under the tub and let and move it. At the very last, I can pull the 2x4 out.
 

Jsmallberries

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Thanks Terry,

This slab was like that from the get go, I know first hand, installing 20x20 tiles a few years back.

What about sealing the cut out in the slab where the pipe enters? it's app 10 x 14 opening in the slab
 

Terry

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In Washington nobody seals the drain area on a slab.
I've only heard about that on forums about other states. Not a requirement here.
 
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