Help-About ready to jump off a Bridge!!!

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by farmboy101, Apr 26, 2010.

  1. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    My understanding is that the poster asked for advice whether to buy a 1 or 1.5 cubic foot softener--either with the Clack WS1 head. He noted that the price difference was only $61 different from the source he was considering using.

    I use 8 gal per minute per cubic foot of resin in sizing so if maximum water flow is greater than 8 gpm I would recommend the 1.5 cubic foot unit. Given the very limited water supply I don't see that it is reasonable to size for more that 12 gpm so I don't see much basis for going larger than 1.5 cubic foot. The final consideration, in my view, is whether 1.5 is too large given overall water use. My view is no given the planned installation of the ensuite facility.
  2. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state

    There is a huge difference between what the new shower is designed to flow and what will actually come out of the shower heads. This is why a lot of folks are really dissapointed when they install that huge pie pan shower head and only get a dribble of water from it. You need to supply the shower valve and shower heads with their rated volume and pressure to get the full performance from the equipment and that varies by manufacturer and design. Just because you have 2 shower heads does not necessarily mean that you are flowing a whole lot of gpm. The shower heads may be low volume water savers. There are a lot of factors that come into play. When the house is new construction, it's a lot easier to control the variables be proper pipe sizing and proper volume and supply pressure. It get's a lot messier when the house has been ther for 50 years or so and has a mish mash of plumbing in it that may or may not have been properly sized in the beginning. And when someone wants to upgrade their shower on a remodel, it takes some fancy talking to convince them that they need to re-pipe the whole house. Of course most DIY'ers don't really know anything at all about pipe sizing, volume, pressure and such and go right ahead and hook on to the existing 1/2 copper that was already run up the wall. Often with less than stellar results. It's why we get paid the big bucks.
  3. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    If your peak demand is higher than 12 gpm, yes, a 1.5 cuft is too small because it has a constant SFR of 12 gpm. For any more on than that you'll have to call me so we can come up with your peak demand gpm.
  4. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    You can use a Clack WS-1 CS on any size softener you could need, so why go with a Fleck?
  5. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    My guess is that you are replying to me but who said anything about going to a 1.25" control valve?

    Since you don't know this stuff without looking up charts, maybe you shoudn't guess at these things, it's not helping the OP.
  6. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    He has a well running at 30/50 psi with 3/4" plumbing and you're jumping to him having to replumb the whole house to add this shower.... I don't think anything we've heard yet supports that.

    And you still haven't answered the questions. What constant SFR gpm do you use for a 1.0 cuft softener?

    What peak demand flow rate gpm do you think his new shower will have?
  7. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    I have no clue what peak demand his new shower will have because I have no clue who makes the shower valve and shower heads. Please take the time to more thouroghly read the post before you jump all over people. Had you taken the time to read, you would have noted that I did not recommend re-piping the house at all. What I said was "It get's a lot messier when the house has been ther for 50 years or so and has a mish mash of plumbing in it that may or may not have been properly sized in the beginning. And when someone wants to upgrade their shower on a remodel, it takes some fancy talking to convince them that they need to re-pipe the whole house.

    You seem to want to argue this point for some reason. I can not give him any sort of accurate SFR without knowing exactly what is going on and in his house and if you have been in the business for 13 years you should know that. I can come close and I'm pretty sure my recommendation does just that but this is one of those reasons why sometimes it's better to have someone that knows what they are doing, come out to the house and check things out. Be happy I recommended that he go with a Clack Valve, maybe he will buy it from you :)

    Oh yea, almost forgot. Without knowing the pressure drop or the exact model I generally would put the SFR somewhere between 6 and 10.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2010
  8. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Then take the worst case, highest gpm fixtures and add them up. You sound as if you don't remember that he has already told us 2-3 body sprays and the big shower head. I can do it and I'm not a Master Plumber. You seem to be forgetting that he said 2-3 body sprays and a big brand named showerhead.

    That is why I am wondering why you are disagreeing with me, and now saying you can't come up with a number; and why you are suggesting a 1.0 cuft softener while the rest of us are saying a 1.5 cuft. And you call it arguing while I call it clarifying and discussing what you have suggested and advised the OP.

    Pressure drop of what, his softener will be just after the pressure tank so it will not see a pressure drop but... the constant SFR of a 1.0 cuft softener is 9 gpm, and you are guessing maybe he needs 10 gpm constant SFR. If you go with Bob999, he says 8 gpm/cuft.

    Or are you talking peak demand flow at the shower instead of the SFR of the softener? If you are, I see 3 * 2.5 gpm for the sprays plus at least 2.5 for the shower head and that comes up to 10 gpm just when the shower is running. And if a toilet is flushed or a sink is used at the same time, then your 1.0 cuft softner is too small.
  9. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    You are still stuck on what his shower head is potentially capable of and not what he will actually get out of it.

    You must have me confused with someone else because I don't think I did recommend a 1.0 cu/ft unit. What I did say is that I do not believer an 1.25 inlet head will be needed.
  10. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    All Clack WS-1 valves are internal 1". The difference between the various versions of the WS-1 (CS, EE) is in the electronic control and how the valve is programmed. The EE version is, in my opinion, as good as or better than the CS version--the differences are in how the programmer (the homeowner if it is a DIY installion) inputs the programming parameters. Actually the EE version allows some flexibility in programming not available on the CS version.

    For a softener I would not recommend the TC (time clock) version of the valve because it doesn't count gallons.
  11. farmboy101

    farmboy101 New Member

    Messages:
    46
    Location:
    Vancouver Island
    Thanks everybody. I am going with the 1.5 cuft with the clack ws1 cs from Aquatell Canada. They offer free shipping, preloaded tank, Plumbing connectors etc. I will choose the shower heads based on low flow gpm.

    The pressure tank Tee is 1" pipe then it is reduced to 3\4 to the softener. Should I run 1" from the Tee to the new softener??

    I have less than a tablespoon of sediment in my existing filter cartridge housing in the past year and have no filter in it. Should I get rid of it and all of the bends and elbows it has??

    Here are a few pictures of my setup including the UV housing.

    Wally, As far as the inspector goes I know her quite well. I feed her every night. Shes my dog:D. I do not have building inspections up here in the great white frozen north part of Canada, only Electrical and Septic.

    Attached Files:

  12. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    Good choice. Understand that I was never recommending that you re-pipe your house, I was trying to explain the difficulties that one can run into when doing that kind of remodel. We run into it often as folks decide to install the "super shower" and think their only expense will be the construction and the cost of the shower and valve. Very often we have to give them the unhappy news that the dream shower they want will not be possible with the pipin and or pressure/volume available to the new bathroom. It can and often does run into considerably more than they expected.

    Thanks everybody. I am going with the 1.5 cuft with the clack ws1 cs from Aquatell Canada. They offer free shipping, preloaded tank, Plumbing connectors etc. I will choose the shower heads based on low flow gpm.

    Low flow heads will certainly help the situation

    The pressure tank Tee is 1" pipe then it is reduced to 3\4 to the softener. Should I run 1" from the Tee to the new softener??

    If the run is pretty short, don't bother.


    I have less than a tablespoon of sediment in my existing filter cartridge housing in the past year and have no filter in it. Should I get rid of it and all of the bends and elbows it has??

    Definitely !
  13. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Sounds good. I agree with Wally's comments.

    One other thought on the multiple shower heads that you may want to check out before buying your new fixtures--in most installations a limiting factor is the amount of hot water available. It of course varies depending on the size of the hot water storage tank, the recovery rate of the water heater, the temperature of the incoming water, and the temperature of the shower water.
  14. farmboy101

    farmboy101 New Member

    Messages:
    46
    Location:
    Vancouver Island
    Update on Softener choice

    I ordered the softener yesterday from Aquatell Canada. I decided to get the 60,000 grain 2 cuft Clack WS1 CS. I also have a Res Up dispenser coming with it. The total cost delivered to my door is $893 . I could buy 3 of them for less than 1 Kinetico. I paid over $3200 for the one that will be taken out.

    I plan on running 1" from the pressure tank to the valve and then reducing to 3\4" from the valve outlet to the Sterilizer. I chose the 1" copper plumbing adapters that are included in the price as is the byass valve. I want to adapt to pex and sharkbite :confused:(new to me as Im a solder copper guy) to simplify the hookup. Any tips Wally??

    The hot water tank I have is a standard 60 gallon electric one so size might be a factor for the new shower. I did not consider that before you mentioned it bob999, Thanks
  15. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,802
    Location:
    New England
    You can only drain a WH to about 75-80% before the incoming water dilutes the temp so much, the output temperature drops noticably. There are a couple of way to make the existing WH look bigger: run it hotter and put on a tempering valve to keep it safe; drain water heat recovery to preheat the cold, meaning the hot doesn't have to be as hot for the same effect. The later only works on a shower, not a bath, since you aren't dumping that water down the drain while filling the tub.
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