Heard Noise Behind Tub. No Access to Failed Part. How Hosed Am I?

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Jack1670

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Hello! I was searching the web for some help and ran across this forum. I hope in the future to return the favor as I have some amateur plumbing experiences myself which have always been unique. I hope someone can tell me that I'm a moron and missed something simple in this thread.

I have a large 15 year old American Standard jetted tub in the master bath. It appeared to be working perfectly until my daughter was turning the air bubble control, heard something drop behind the tub and found she pulled the whole body of the control valve out. All 3 of the control valves were this way, so they might have come loose that night or years ago, we have no idea. We discovered that if we pulled on it, the whole thing came off. It appears the valve control got stuck and when we turned the valve we were actually turning and loosening the nut on the back side of the assembly. In other words- the whole assembly would turn when you moved the knob so the rear nut worked its way loose and fell off.

I have 1 access door to the tub at the faucet valve area (area under the TV on the right in the 1st pic) and found a retaining nut on the back side of the control fell out. I was able to find the sealing washer and nut for the controller near the water valves and was successful in reinstalling it, but the other 2 controllers are at the far end of the tub and there is no access to them. I can see the end nut sitting way out in the distance that fell off for one of them, but it's impossible to reach.

So how hosed am I on the 2 that are impossible to reach? Do I have to tear apart the tile work to get to them or is there a replacement kit or some trick to this that I am missing? PLEASE tell me that I am a moron and I missed a very simple solution here, because I think I'm going to have to start tearing the tile out from around this thing. I really don't want to do this...

I took a few pictures to help with the explanation. 1 is of the tub itself if this POS looks familiar to anyone, the next pic is of the air bubble controller body pulling out because the end nut fell out of the back, the last pic is of the back side of the only controller I was able to access and get a pic of. It was a pretty good stretch to get the camera in there for that pic, so I hope you can see what I am talking about. Note the nut and sealing washer on the back. Can't install them without access to the back from what I can see so the other 2 are impossible to reach.

Sorry for the long post and thanks very much in advance for any help.

Jack

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Sluggo

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I'm not a plumber, but I don't see how that can be fixed without access. What is on the other side of the wall? Would it be preferable to access the backside of the tub that way, rather than tear out tile work?
 

Jack1670

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I'm not a plumber, but I don't see how that can be fixed without access. What is on the other side of the wall? Would it be preferable to access the backside of the tub that way, rather than tear out tile work?

Thanks very much for the response!

The wall on the left is a small room for the toilet. That room also has a lot of tile, but have not cut into that area yet to see if I can reach the other 2 controllers. I was hoping someone would say there was some kind of modification kit for this issue from American Standard which resolves this without going that far. I can't be the only person with this problem as the o-ring seal for the valve appears to get stuck pretty easily as all 3 controllers were jammed. It took a lot of force when I had the valves out to get them to turn again properly. There has to be 100 other tubs with this problem I would imagine but hope someone has found a clever solution.

The back where the window is has stucco out there. That would only gain access to 1 other valve so I don't want to go that way.
 

Sluggo

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The most direct way to get an answer to the issue about a modification kit is to call American Standard's Customer Service department and ask. It's not an unreasonable thought, but I suspect that there is no such animal. Good luck in any case.
 

Jack1670

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Oh no!! While viewing this thread I just thought of checking our other tub. We have another American Standard tub in our guest bedroom and same valves and similar issue! These valves are also jammed and the bodies are turning on all 3 of them, but it feels like the end nuts have not fallen off yet as the bodies are loose, but I'm unable to pull them off. I'll try to see if I can just turn the body and get the nut to catch on the back side and tighten down, but I can see clear sealant which has ripped and has settled in the back side of the knobs, so that's not good. Jeez man, this really sucks. Don't buy these American Standard tubs... Here are pics attached of this one. It's also 15 years old and was installed when the house was built.

I'll try giving American Standard a call, but I have a feeling they will tell me that I am the only person to ever have this issue and there is no solution even though I now have 2 tubs with the problem.

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Here is the best shot I could get of the clear sealant between the tub and knob.

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Sluggo

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I'm also not an expert in installing/un-installing those types of tubs, but is it possible to remove the plumbing fixtures from the top side so you can temporarily lift the tubs out, fix the problem and then re-set them? Or, do you have access underneath so that you could cut out some of the subfloor and get access that way? I'm not saying either of these approaches would be easy but, compared to the pain of tearing out tile, it might be preferable.
 

Jack1670

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That did cross my mind last night too. The large tub appears to have concrete under it but wood between the tub and concrete, so I think it can be moved there. The valve part of it has long pex lines so that's another good sign that it can be moved around a bunch without having to disconnect that end. I then looked up top and the rim around the outside is glued to the tiles. Looks like both grout and sealant was used around that edge, so removing it looks like it will cause a lot of damage. If this tub were to be removed from where it is sitting, both the tub and a lot of tile would likely have to be destroyed.

I'm just going to bite my lip and create another access panel in the toilet room for the large tub on the left side. If I am able to somehow reach the remaining 2 controllers from that point then I'll consider myself lucky and I suppose I'll have 2 access points from this point on. In the pic, the tub looks small, but it is not. It's huge and reaching anything from either end is a challenge. The controller on the front side should be just within my reach but the one in the back will still be too far away. Was thinking that maybe I'll make some kind of extension to hold the nut for that one while I turn the controller body from the outside and hopefully the threads catch.

These controllers are like large banjo bolts. The body and nut sandwich a fitting and washers in-between as you tighten the nut, so having all of it seated and aligned while trying to work the last washer and nut in is tricky when your hand can't make it in there.

Before I do any of this I'm still going to call American Standard and see what they say. I am not optimistic about their answer, but it's definitely worth a shot before I ruin another wall trying to fix this the hard way.

Thanks again for the help and will post pics of how I repaired it when done. When I did a search for this issue all I got was a bunch of Home Depot and American Standard links in Google. Absolutely NO info on repairing an issue like this which was annoying. Looks like those companies are pretty good at covering these issues up from the web. Worst-case is maybe this thread could help someone with a similar issue in the future, because I know with 2 tubs having similar issues that there has to be a lot of people in the same boat. If I were to make a custom home with jetted tubs, I would be on their case to make more than 1 access panel for servicing because these things are not terribly reliable. 1 access panel and sealing the rest of it completely is just stupid.

Jack
 

Sluggo

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Jack-
Unfortunately, what you are experiencing with lack of access is common. It may be too difficult, or the homeowner doesn't like the look of access panels, or the installer may figure "I'll be long gone if there's ever a problem." When I had to deal with my own jetted, sunken tub recently, there was a hatchway in an adjacent closet that gave me access to the underside. But each installation is different; I was just fortunate with how mine was set up. In any case, good luck on resolving your issues.

P.S.: I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but what about giving up on the nuts and seeing if there is a glue that would allow you to fix the loose fittings in place from the top side?
 

Koa

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I'm wondering if you could rent or buy and return one of those fiber optic cameras for searching in walls etc. Maybe use a wire to pull fitting back up and epoxy it in place so you can screw the cover back on. Maybe 5 minute epoxy the wire to the hidden fittings if you can't grab them with just the wire alone.

Ethan Hunt could do it while suspended from a wire attached to a C130 circling overhead while being shot at.

I think it will help to play this in the background while you're working on it.

 

Jack1670

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Thanks for the response everyone! I bit my lip this past week and created another access area from the toilet room on the left into the tub. I cut a 14"x14" hole as I found a door kit at a hardware store and that was the biggest size they had. It doesn't look bad at all with the cover on it and now I have 2 access points for servicing this thing. I could not reach the 2 air valves even with a 14x14 hole, so I had to squeeze my whole body in there and snake my way under the tub and to where I could reach by hand. Ended up cutting my arms and body up through the process, but was able to finally get everything fixed. I got stuck and couldn't get back out, but the wife was able to pull me out. Can't imagine anyone claustrophobic being able to do this.

Here are a couple of pics of where I needed to go attached. I'm just happy it's fixed at this point.

Turns out those air valves were never working. Now that they turn properly it's a completely different experience. Air bubbles now turn ON or OFF when we want them to and it's a pretty nice feature to have. I also noticed before that if water hit the knob you could hear air sucking sounds coming from it. Makes sense as the nut which holds it all together so it can seal was loose or off, so the vacuum to pull air through the system was sucking from the outside instead of inside the tub. Without this seal, it made noise and also leaked water behind the tub. Lucky for me that not enough water leaked to hurt anything and I could find no damage. Now that it's fixed it's sealed properly in that area, so no more sucking noises or water leaks.

So if you have one of these tubs and you don't see a change in bubbles when you turn the knob, or you hear air sucking noises when water hits the knob, be prepared for an adventure.

Next is the other tub, but that one shouldn't be too bad as the nuts are still on the back of those holding the banjo intact. I just need to find a way to get them tight and free up the valves to they turn instead of the whole body so we don't risk someone turning the body and losing the nut again.

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Jack1670

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I'm wondering if you could rent or buy and return one of those fiber optic cameras for searching in walls etc. Maybe use a wire to pull fitting back up and epoxy it in place so you can screw the cover back on. Maybe 5 minute epoxy the wire to the hidden fittings if you can't grab them with just the wire alone.

Ethan Hunt could do it while suspended from a wire attached to a C130 circling overhead while being shot at.

I think it will help to play this in the background while you're working on it.


Brilliant idea! I heard that racing pit crews do something similar by using silicone to keep wheel lug nuts on the replacement wheels for a quick and easy change. When they pop them on the car during a wheel/tire change the nuts are ready to go without any effort from the installer. Just zip them down and go! Damn, this might have worked... Wish I would have saw your message before I crawled in there.
 
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