Hard water with iron looking for advice

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DuckyFred

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Hello all. I am new to the forum and to soft/hard water in general. I will continue to read the past posts but wanted to throw out my situation for any advice.

Just built a home in Upstate NY. New well at 144 feet. Very hard water with iron. No sulfer smells. I have been working with my well driller as well as a local contractor building supply house for testing. I also bought my own test kit. I will be installing the unit myself.

The numbers:
pH: 7
Hardness: 134 gpg
iron: 2.5 ppm (ferrous; water is clear from the tap)
Pumping rate of pump: 13.25 gpm (draw down/cycle time*60)
House: 1 bathroom (hope to install a second bath in a few years)
People: 2 (wife and I; kids are grown and on their own and down south)

I have been given two different options. The well driller wants to go with a 110k twin alternating softener. The supply house uses Charger Water products and sent them my numbers directly for recommendation. They suggested a 1 cuft iron filter plus a 2.5 cuft 64k softener. I believe the iron filter uses birm.

I am leaning toward the iron filter with softener. But should I be looking at a Katalox Light unit? Is the softener big enough for my hard water?

Thanks in adance for any help.
 

Reach4

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But should I be looking at a Katalox Light unit? Is the softener big enough for my hard water?

Yes on the KL, but 1 cubic ft is not enough. Think flow rate, and see KL calculator: http://www.watchwater.com/systems/kl_system.php BIRM can work on your iron also. Any sulfur smell? I don't think BIRM helps that.

A single softener tank would meet your needs simpler. See http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/sizing.php and also look through the link at the bottom.

Any chance that your 134 is mg/L or ppm? 135 GPG is really really high.

I would get a lab water test if you have not done so. I like kit 90 from http://www.karlabs.com/watertestkit/ which gives a lot for the money.
 
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DuckyFred

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Thanks for the quick reply.

No sulfer smell.

Yes to gpg. I have the Spectrum test kit for hardness, iron and pH #2401.

The well driller gave me a 94 reading. The supply house gave me the 134 reading.
My test was around 140 before I had a color change. I would not say it turned blue but there was a definite color change. My test says count the drops and the result is gpg.
 

Reach4

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With the Hach 5-B test kit, a well-respected test, you should dilute your water with distilled water to keep the test sample at or under 30 gpg. 4 parts distilled and 1 part tested water, and then multiply the result by 5.

I would get the lab test kit on order. It gets mailed in, and takes typically a little under two weeks with the two trips in the mail.

But certainly you have enough evidence for selecting a softener. I would think that you would want one that refills the brine tank with softened water. The Fleck 9100 dual controller does that. There are others.

The dual system is looking better to me now. I am not a pro.

See the SFR discussions on http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm One think that I feel is missing is the effect of the water hardness. SFR has to do with the contact time, and it seems to me that not only is flow rate a factor, I would think higher hardness water would need more contact time. I could see you with a pair of 14 x 65 inch tanks with maybe 3 cuft or 3.5 of resin each. I think that is what your plumber has in mind. Sounds like a good recommendation. Maybe 13 by 54 with 2.5 cuft each would be enough.

I think want to have a tap (or more) with water after the KL filter but before the softener. That could be used for drinking, and house plants. It is also a good place to attach a pressure gauge, and a good place to sample water to test the results of the KL filter.
 

Bannerman

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A lab test will provide a complete water anaylisys report on not only hardness & iron but also bacterial and chemical contamination and safety. As your water source is now your own private well, you are your own municipality so you are totally responsible for your water's safety, aesthetics and treatment methods.

Water hardness titration kits generally have a hardness range where they are most accurate. The distilled water dilution method which Reach4 recommended, is a method to reduce the hardness of the test sample to within the hardness range that many test kits perform most accurately.

There are various methods for iron reduction that would be effective. Chlorine injection followed by a contact tank and carbon filtration is a simple and effective method especially as any bacteria which maybe present, will also be neutralized.

Birm media has had a long history but it is now being out-performed by the newer Katalox Light product.

It is generally desirable to size a softener to satisfy the household soft water requirements while regenerating not more often that 1X per week. As your water's hardness is excessive, you would then require an extremely large (ie 6.5 cuft for 134 gpg) single tank softener which is normally excessive for a residential application and would not provide the efficiency offered by a twin tank unit.

Your softening requirements at 100 gpg are estimated to be 12,000 grains per day (60 gals X 2 ppl X 100 gpg) while at 134 gpg, you would require 16,080 grains/day assuming the iron is removed prior to the softener.

Twin 3 cuft tanks appear to be a reasonable compromise even as multiple regeneration cycles would be needed each week. When programmed for a most efficient 6 lbs/cuft salt dose, each tank is estimated to require regeneration every 5 days with 12,000 grains/day consumption and 3.73 days with 16,080 grain/day consumption. When programmed for an efficient 8 lb/cuft salt dose, the regeneration frequency would be extended to 6 days or 4.47 days respectively. Of course, a larger quantity of resin can further reduce the regeneration frequency.
 

Reach4

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Katalox Light requires more backwash GPM than a softener of similar size. Fortunately your well water coming in will be roughly similar summer and winter. I think 30% bed expansion is what you aim for. For backwashing, a tall tank does not need more GPM than a shorter tank of the same diameter.

Picture each number in a column in a table.

With a 14 inch diameter tank, you would need backwash GPM to get (*) bed expansion:
Backwash water
temp C: 10 20 30
temp F: 50 68 86

GPM (30%): 10.9 14.0 17.1
GPM (25%): 8.6 13.1 16.0

I am not a pro, and I may have made a mistake.
 

DuckyFred

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Thanks again for the replies.

There is a local environmental lab that does water testing.
My water was tested for bacteria and came back <1 col./100ml.
So it passed the NY state sanitary code requirements for potable water.
I will check with the lab to see what further testing they will do and the cost.
 

DuckyFred

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My main goal is to get rid of the iron and the iron stains.
I am just hoping to get the overall hardness levels down without spending a fortune in salt each week.

I do not mind spending the money for the system.
I just do not want to waste it on a system that does not have a chance.

I was quoted close to $4000 for the 110k twin tank Fleck 9100 installed with RO system.
I know I can do better than that and install the system myself.

I was quoted around $2000 for the iron filter with softener Fleck 5600 and RO system.
This is for the system only. I would install it.
But the softener was a 64k system. I did not think that was big enough.

We have a water cooler for drinking water.
And we have access to town water from the firehouse for a small fee if you fill a tank.
 

ditttohead

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I would highly recommend building a system with the ability to add some more treatment later if needed. Iron removal will typically be handled by a Katalox Light system, but some oxidant injection and contact time may also be needed. This can be added later if needed. A twin alt. softener 9100SXT would also be a good idea to reduce hardness. Again, considering you are going to be your own municipality, a comprehensive water test should be done, not just a free test by the local water company. For the RO system, some more information would be helpful. TDS, pump pressure, water temperature, etc. RO performance may not be very good unless it is designed properly for your application. Most companies don't understand how to apply an RO in a Brackish water condition which is what it sounds like your water may qualifiy as.
 

DuckyFred

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Thanks again for the replies.

I received my Hach 5-B test kit yesterday.
I tested the water twice today.
It tested at 108 and 110 gpg.

I will be sending a water sample for a comprehensive water test this week.

Would it be premature to order an iron filter before the water test is done?
My iron test is showing 2.5 ppm.
 

Bannerman

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Would it be premature to order an iron filter before the water test is done?
Yes!
You don't yet know the water's pH or if there is manganese, bacteria or other conditions that must also be dealt with. Best to obtain the test results to consider the whole picture before proceeding to order equipment.
 

ditttohead

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Totally agree. Depending on the test results, there are different methods of iron reduction. Too many variables to really discuss here, just wait until you get the test results back and we will make appropriate recommendations.
 
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