Had a close call with my well pump today !

[Alcan]

You know how that when a pump stops, there is usually quite an arc
across the contacts of the pressure switch. After an extended time
of arcing, switch contacts have been known to weld shut, thus not
allowing the pump to stop when the cutoff pressure is reached.

Well, a couple of months ago I was researching about putting an R/C
snubber across the contacts to reduce the arcing because I noticed
that the contacts were starting to pit somewhat.
In my searching, I came across an ad about a product called NOsparc that
is supposed to completely eliminate the arcing.

Purchased one and installed it. I tested it in the dark to see if
I could see any arcing at all and it seemed to work as indicated;
I just barely could see a spark in the dark.

Well, fast forward 2 months later.
I had just went outside when I heard a whining noise; I thought it
was the hum of a distant piece of machinery.

A few minutes later, wife opens the door and says, "what is making
that noise". Soon as she opened the door, I realized that the noise
was coming from inside the house. I ran to the pump room where the
noise was and first thing I noticed was that the pressue gauge was
reading 95 psi and still climbing. I immediately killed power to
the pump. The pressure started to drop but the noise continued.
Then I realized that the noise was the overpressure valve
venting the water.

After the pressure dropped to the cut-on point I removed the switch cover
and turned power back on to the pump. When the cut-off point was
reached, the contacts opened but the pump still ran.

I thought,"that's impossible", then I realized that the only way
the pump could still get power was through that NOsparc suppressor.

Removed the NOsparc, then everything was fine.

I shudder to think what might have happened if the pump had continued
to run. I had no idea the pump would even build to 95 psi and it was still
climbing higher even with the overpressure valve open.

So, here's a product that caused exactly what it was supposed to prevent!

Thought a warning was in order in case anyone has installed this or a
similar product across the contacts of your pump's pressure switch.

Alcan

 

[Valveman]

Most submersibles will build 100-150 psi. Arcing only happens when the pump cycles on or off. Reduce the cycling as much as possible with a CSV and you won't have to worry about arcing or the many other problems cycling causes.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Usually there are two pairs of contacts on a 240 volt pressure switch. How did a single suppressor shorting out keep the pump running? 120 VAC pump?

Thanks for the warning.

 

[Alcan]

Yes, the pump is 120v, I'm only using one pair of the contacts; that way
when the contacts become 'pitted', I can switch to the other pair.

On the CSV, I had one on for about a year, then I eliminated it when I plumbed in
a water softener a couple months ago.
The CSV made absolutely no difference whatsoever on how often the pump cycled.
I suppose that one reason could be the way that we use the water.
We never have the water on continuously for very long.

However, even with that said, before I installed the CSV, I timed the pump running
from the cut-on point to the cut-off point with the kitchen faucet opened all the way.
Then after, I installed the CSV, I timed it again as before with kitchen faucet full open
and the time for the pump to go from the cut-on point to the cut-off point was the same.

 

[VAWellDriller]

Yes, the pump is 120v, I'm only using one pair of the contacts; that way
when the contacts become 'pitted', I can switch to the other pair.

On the CSV, I had one on for about a year, then I eliminated it when I plumbed in
a water softener a couple months ago.
The CSV made absolutely no difference whatsoever on how often the pump cycled.
I suppose that one reason could be the way that we use the water.
We never have the water on continuously for very long.

However, even with that said, before I installed the CSV, I timed the pump running
from the cut-on point to the cut-off point with the kitchen faucet opened all the way.
Then after, I installed the CSV, I timed it again as before with kitchen faucet full open
and the time for the pump to go from the cut-on point to the cut-off point was the same.

Sounds like you installed the CSV wrong..... maybe after the pressure switch, or your kitchen faucet uses < 1GPM.

 

[Alcan]

Sounds like you installed the CSV wrong..... maybe after the pressure switch, or your kitchen faucet uses < 1GPM.

No, the CSV was installed correctly, it was the first thing on the line from the pump.

The kitchen faucet wide open on the cold only, which is how I tested the CSV, puts out exactly 5 quarts/min.

 

[Valveman]

No, the CSV was installed correctly, it was the first thing on the line from the pump.

The kitchen faucet wide open on the cold only, which is how I tested the CSV, puts out exactly 5 quarts/min.

Well then the adjustment bolt on the CSV must be tightened in too far. The pump should never shut off as long as 5 quarts GPM or more water is being used.

 

[Alcan]

Well then the adjustment bolt on the CSV must be tightened in too far. The pump should never shut off as long as 5 quarts GPM or more water is being used.

The CSV that I have is a plastic model; there are no adjustments, unless there is an adjustment available if you take the unit apart.

 

[Valveman]

No adjustment to the plastic CSV. You just have to turn the pressure switch up high enough to make the CSV work.

 

[Ballvalve]

Most submersibles will build 100-150 psi. Arcing only happens when the pump cycles on or off. Reduce the cycling as much as possible with a CSV and you won't have to worry about arcing or the many other problems cycling causes.

And some will go to 300+ psi... but interesting about arcing on contacts. If the amp draw is within the limits of the switch, you should not see a "arc" but perhaps the smallest of flash on the contacts. This will still give you millions of cycles as designed. If you want to go for many millions of cycles than install a magnetic relay that puts just a few micro amps on the pressure switch contacts. CSV does not change the draw passing thru the contacts, but might reduce the frequency. I just checked a pump house of mine and found 3 waterlogged plain tanks, the pump was kicking on and off between 30 and 60 every 5 seconds. Almost made me throw up. Fixed that, but since its been months, plan to replace the cscr box or caps at least.

What it did make me realize is how incredibly tough are the Franklin control boxes and motors that are down the hole. AND the pressure switch that is some 20 years old, though greatly overrated in HP for the pump in place. But I don't reccomend such a test to anyone.

I suppose the CSV might have stopped this situation? Or without a tank, or waterlogged ones, would it still cycle as I saw?

To the guy with the 120v motor, use BOTH contacts in the pressure switch, split the wires and split the draw between them rather than some after market fixer upper. Also get an ammeter and see if you are pulling too many amps - might have a dying well pump.

 

[Valveman]

And some will go to 300+ psi... but interesting about arcing on contacts. If the amp draw is within the limits of the switch, you should not see a "arc" but perhaps the smallest of flash on the contacts. This will still give you millions of cycles as designed. If you want to go for many millions of cycles than install a magnetic relay that puts just a few micro amps on the pressure switch contacts. CSV does not change the draw passing thru the contacts, but might reduce the frequency. I just checked a pump house of mine and found 3 waterlogged plain tanks, the pump was kicking on and off between 30 and 60 every 5 seconds. Almost made me throw up. Fixed that, but since its been months, plan to replace the cscr box or caps at least.

What it did make me realize is how incredibly tough are the Franklin control boxes and motors that are down the hole. AND the pressure switch that is some 20 years old, though greatly overrated in HP for the pump in place. But I don't reccomend such a test to anyone.

I suppose the CSV might have stopped this situation? Or without a tank, or waterlogged ones, would it still cycle as I saw?

To the guy with the 120v motor, use BOTH contacts in the pressure switch, split the wires and split the draw between them rather than some after market fixer upper. Also get an ammeter and see if you are pulling too many amps - might have a dying well pump.

Yes you want to stay within the amp rating of the switch. But even a 1HP, 9 amp motor can cause arc (flash) on 20 amp contacts. That is because it takes 6 to 9 times the running amps to start a pump. But yes these switches are made to handle millions of cycles like that. The best thing is to reduce the number and frequency of starts as when using a CSV. Also the CSV can reduce the inrush start currents. When starting a pump against a closed or almost closed valve, as can be done with a CSV, the inrush current is reduced to 2 to 3 times the running current instead of 6 to 9 times.

Yes motors can be incredible tough to handle a waterlog situation like that. But for every day of cycling into a waterlogged tank, you are reducing the life of the motor by a month or so.

When a CSV is used with a waterlogged tank the pump will still build up and shut off instantly after the faucet is closed, and turn on instantly when a faucet is opened. But the CSV will keep the pump running steady as long as the faucet or shower is running. If I can't get there to fix a waterlogged tank soon, I tell the homeowner to open a 1 GPM garden hose out in the yard and leave it running until I get there. That way the pump just runs 24/7 instead of rapid cycling until I get the tank replaced. So I don't have to worry about them burning up the pump before I can get there to take care of the tank.

 

[Alcan]

No adjustment to the plastic CSV. You just have to turn the pressure switch up high enough to make the CSV work.

I understand the concept of the benefits that a CSV is supposed to have, but in my case,
it just didn't seem to work as it should.
I didn't save my receipt, nor do I even remember the name of the place where I bought it.
But I do remember that it was the 60 psi model and the outfit where I bought it said to adjust my pump
pressure switch to start the pump at 45 psi and stop it at 65 psi, which is what I did.

Then, just out of curiosity, before installing the CSV, I timed the pump run time with the kitchen faucet on
at 1.25 gpm like I said in my previous post.

Then, after installing the CSV, I did the same test with the same faucet open, and the pump started, ran, and
cut off at the same time, give or take a few seconds.

So, are you saying that I needed to have the cut off point higher than 65 psi for a 60 psi CSV to work properly ?

 

[Valveman]

So, are you saying that I needed to have the cut off point higher than 65 psi for a 60 psi CSV to work properly ?

Yes that should have made the CSV keep the pump running as long as the sink was on. Since most 60 PSI CSV's are installed down in the well, we make them regulate higher than 60. When installed above ground they will regulate at about 65 PSI. That way when you put them 12' below the ground they will still deliver 60 PSI at the surface. And it is rare for any pressure gauge to be completely accurate. They are always 2-3 PSI off in one direction or the other. So according to your gauge, and since the CSV was installed above ground, you would have to turn the pressure switch up to about 50/70 so the CSV can hold 65 PSI steady while the faucet or anything is running.

With the pressure switch set at 45/65 the pump will shut off before the CSV even starts to work. Since these type CSV's are not adjustable, you just have to turn the pressure switch up high enough to make them work and to get the run time filling the tank that you want.