Garage electrical outlets & appliances (water softener, etc)

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swlred

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Hi everyone,

I originally posted this question in the water softener forum, but I'm thinking it might be more of an electrical question, so I hope you don't mind if I repost it here:

Is a GFCI outlet required (or recommended) for a water softener located in the garage? I'm installing some whole-house water equipment in my garage (sediment filter, water softener, UV light) and the instruction manual for the UV light recommends installing it on a GFCI outlet. The instructions for the water softener do not specify which type of electrical outlet should be used.

Also, a related question (which I should probably post in the electrical forum, but I'll try it here first since it is related to the water softener topic): Do all outlets in a garage have to be GFCI-protected? The original circuit in the garage is GFCI protected, but I hired an electrician to install some additional outlets for the water equipment and new HVAC equipment (whole-house dehumidifier) and he installed regular circuits without GFCI protection. Additionally, the outlets have more receptacles than necessary to serve the equipment.

I am not an electrician, which is why I hired one, but some internet research has led me to believe that appliance outlets in the garage must be either simplex (for a single appliance) or duplex (for two appliances plugged in to the same outlet) and that no unused, non-GFCI outlets should be present in the garage.
 

JWelectric

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all receptacles in the garage is required to be GFCI. Did the electrician get a permit and have his/her work inspected
 

hj

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quote; all receptacles in the garage is required to be GFCI.

But, I removed the ones for the freezer and refrigerator after they "false tripped". Luckily I discovered them before things thawed out. I was at a customer's house once and they had an extension cord to the freezer. I asked why they did that and they said the outlet went dead while they were on vacation and everything in the freezer spoiled, (the same thing happened to my daughter also), I asked if they had tried to reset the GFCI, but they said none had tripped. I did some investigating and found it under a bench in their bathroom. They had never even known it was there.
 

swlred

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Nope, no permit or inspection as far as I know. Isn't there an exception for GFCIs for appliances in the garage?
 

swlred

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No. There used to be about fifteen years ago.

Dang. It looks like it's time to hire a new electrician....

Do you have any tips on how to hire a good one? I'm new to this area, and the one I hired is a union electrician, and additionally came highly recommended on Angie's list as well as by other very good contractors that I hired for other things around the house. I am disappointed that they don't know the current codes.
 

ActionDave

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Dang. It looks like it's time to hire a new electrician....

Do you have any tips on how to hire a good one? I'm new to this area, and the one I hired is a union electrician, and additionally came highly recommended on Angie's list as well as by other very good contractors that I hired for other things around the house. I am disappointed that they don't know the current codes.
He may be a good electrician as far as his workmanship.

Most states have a web page where you can look at who has been red tagged for violations. I recommend staying away from the ones with the biggest add in the yellow pages and the guy who is known for being the cheapest, other than that it's all about word of mouth.
 

hj

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quote; guy who is known for being the cheapest,

When a customer asks if "that is my best price", I tell them it is "my ONLY price" but I can give them the names of some cheaper guys, (and also more expensive ones if they are curious).
 

JerryR

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Easy fix. Just replace the first receptical in the line with a $12 GFCI receptical and feed the rest off the load side.

I know locally even ceiling mounted recepticals to power garage door openers are required to be GFCI.

For my Garage Refrigerator that's plugged into a GFCI I concocted a power monitor that sends me text alerts through my alarm system when that GFCI receptical power is lost. Here's an example of the text and email I received when I tested input recently;

"Watchlight Corporation Notification: 24 Hour Non-Burglary Alarm - Zone Fridge PWR Monitor
2015-03-09 11:29:19 AM EDT Main House"

And when power was restored:
"Watchlight Corporation Notification: Restore 24 Hour Non-Burglary Alarm - Zone Fridge PWR Monitor
2015-03-09 11:29:35 AM EDT Main House"
 

Cacher_Chick

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Are you sure the garage is not protected via a single GFCI receptacle or circuit breaker? That is pretty common here.
 

hj

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quoe;
"Watchlight Corporation Notification: 24 Hour Non-Burglary Alarm - Zone Fridge PWR Monitor
2015-03-09 11:29:19 AM EDT Main House"

Not much assurance when you are on a 2 week vacation in Hawaii. But at least you will be prepared for a grisly scene in the refrigerator/freezer when you get home.
 

JerryR

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quoe;
"Watchlight Corporation Notification: 24 Hour Non-Burglary Alarm - Zone Fridge PWR Monitor
2015-03-09 11:29:19 AM EDT Main House"

Not much assurance when you are on a 2 week vacation in Hawaii. But at least you will be prepared for a grisly scene in the refrigerator/freezer when you get home.

I've got that covered. I have a great next door neighbor. I can call or text neighbor and have him reset the GFCI if needed. My daughter also lives 1/2 mile from the house if needed.

I'm pretty much totally connected. I can remotely monitor and operate the Garage doors, cameras, alarm system and the thermostats, even from Hawaii.
 

Texas Wellman

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You should check your breaker box and see if the garage isn't on a single GFCI breaker or if there is any GFCI plug near the garage trip the test button and see if the other outlets are dead before you roast the electrician. It's possible that it's GFCI protected as suggested in a previous post and you didn't notice it.
 

Jadnashua

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I'm pretty much totally connected. I can remotely monitor and operate the Garage doors, cameras, alarm system and the thermostats, even from Hawaii.
Some people are against GFCI circuits...personally, I don't have an issue with them. Lifesaving equipment in a hospital is often plugged into them.

I have to ask, how long have you had your monitoring system, and have you ever had the system trip the GFCI other than when you pressed the test button? In the last 20-years, at my mother's house, she's had one issue after the power was off and then restored...she had to reset one (of many - most of the old house did not have grounds, so there are a bunch of GFCI's there now - one on each branch that has any receptacles on it along with new 3-prong devices to replace the then 50-year old, worn out devices).

If your frig or freezer trips one, it has a problem...could be wear or a design issue. It should be fixed or replaced.

I've lived in my place now about 30-years, and except on one circuit where I actually had a wiring problem (I think there was a nail or staple in a cable somewhere - I isolated the branch, replaced it, and have never had an issue since), I have NEVER had a GFCI trip with anything that may have been plugged into them.
 

Texas Wellman

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A lot of people report gfci tripping on freezers and refrigerators. Its something to do with the way the motors operate. A lot of people change out the plug in their garage to non-gfi to get around this problem.
 

Jadnashua

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A lot of people report gfci tripping on freezers and refrigerators. Its something to do with the way the motors operate. A lot of people change out the plug in their garage to non-gfi to get around this problem.
Sorry, the question was addressed to JerryR on his system which is monitored, so he'd have a record of 'false' trips. IMHO, a motor that leaks enough to trip a GFCI is either a lousy design, worn out, or defective. GFCI's don't 'false trip', it takes a current imbalance. If all of the current going in, does not come out, it is going somewhere. The whole idea of this is that the GFCI sets a threshold...it trips before it could hurt you. IF the device trips a GFCI, it is IMHO, defective, even if it appears to be 'working'. Some current is leaking, and it could kill you under the right (or wrong, depending on your perspective!) circumstances. Yes, many people don't want to replace or repair an appliance that appears to be working, but for safety, they should. You never know when the odds will be stacked against your or a loved one. Much less traumatic replacing a device than losing a loved one.
 

hj

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I have had drinking fountains, freezers, and refrigerators, for example, trip GFCIs, even though they are fairly new appliances. Personally, I would NOT have a GFCI for a "motor circuit" as long as there was not an empty "receptacle" that a tool or extension cord could be plugged into it.
 

JerryR

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Sorry, the question was addressed to JerryR on his system which is monitored, so he'd have a record of 'false' trips. IMHO, a motor that leaks enough to trip a GFCI is either a lousy design, worn out, or defective. GFCI's don't 'false trip', it takes a current imbalance. If all of the current going in, does not come out, it is going somewhere.

It's tripped 4 times, all prior to installing the power monitor.

Unfortunately some outdoor receptacles are also on that circuit. Tile guy's wet saw and/or grinder tripped it. Twice it's tripped with after rain storms. I suspect the source of those trips was the outdoor transformer for low voltage landscape lights that are powered by the same circuit. We fortunatly found no power to refridgerator before freezer thawed out.

The power monitor was only recently installed and since no other incidents.

----

I have respect for electricity and know that GFCI circuits have value and increase safaty where required by code.

I recently had an electrician install 3 additional circuits and run wiring through the attic. All required GFCI protection.
One was for a Toto Washlet in master bath, 20 amp GFCI by code.
Second was for dedicated 20 amp line for central vac in garage which code required GFCI
Third was for outdoor patio ceiling mounted outlet for ceiling mounted TV, also GFCI code required.
None of these are monitored as they aren't powering critical devices.
 
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Jadnashua

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Thanks, Jerry. I guess I've been lucky. My wetsaw never tripped my GFCI, though, and it got used a fair amount during remodeling. I have a rotisserie for my outdoor grill, and it's never tripped, even in a rainstorm. Course, it's not out there all that often in the rain!
 

Midimagic

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I have seen equipment that does trip GFCIs, especially expensive electronic laboratory equipment. I found several reasons why this happens.

- Reason 1 is that the equipment was designed before there was such thing as a GFCI, and power-line filtering capacitors were built into the device that connected across hot and neutral, across hot and ground, and across neutral and ground. This unbalanced the current flow, because the neutral was at the same potential to the ground. Current flowed through the hot-to ground capacitor and tripped the GFCI.

- Guitar amps with a ground polarity switch will trip a GFCI every time. They must be rewired for 3-wire to work.

- Occasionally the problem with an appliance motor or a set of motors is that the motor and phase capacitors cause a phase shift to appear between the hot and neutral lines on the cord. Often this is not a problem until a surge or sag appears on the line. Then the current on the hot is out of phase with the current on the neutral (because some current flowed into a capacitor-coil combination and did not re-emerge yet). This can trip the GFCI.

- I found some CFLs that trip GFCIs. They put RF out onto the line that is the same on both wires, (not the opposite directions expected). I also found a power failure light charger that trips GFCIs for the same reason.

- I found one GFCI that tripped for no apparent reason, even when nothing was plugged in. When I opened the box, I found it packed with dead roaches. Since there was no sign of roaches anywhere else in the house, they must have been old - a previous tenant.
 
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