Frequency of regeneration

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by TWEAK, Mar 7, 2010.

  1. TWEAK

    TWEAK New Member

    Messages:
    86
    Location:
    Bay Area CA
    Hi,

    I have a 48000 grain Fleck 7000 system. Due to kids growing up and moving out, it's now just me, and my water use is way down. I seem to remember hearing or reading somewhere that you should regenerate every 7 days even if you don't need to. According to the display on the Fleck I am nowhere close to needing to regenerate, but I have the meter set to regenerate every 7 days.

    Is this true that you should regenerate every 7 days? Can anyone explain what happens if you don't? My system seems to be very low on salt usage - seems like maybe only 5 pounds per month - but I feel guilty about wasting the water, since I'm in an area where we have problems and try to conserve. I do feel strongly that I need the softener since my local water company provides well water at 20-23 grains and I know that the deposits crud up everything without it. That was the main reason for installing he softener in the first place.

    Thank you!
  2. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,482
    Location:
    Alaska
    Is there any iron in the water?
    What salt setting or how many minutes is set for the brine refill on the 7000?
    If you are running 9 lbs and 33000 capicity on the unit and one person , you could have 1200 gallons on the meter and a defalt day setting of 14 and it should be good.
    If there is iron let me know that will change the numbers..

    With either gallons or days what will happen is that if you have family over for awhile then the gallons will trip it into a cleaning cycle, while by your self the day counter will most likely over ride it..

    Seven day in my view is more when there is Iron in the water, even a little say .6ppm... then there needs to be a shorted time frame.
  3. TWEAK

    TWEAK New Member

    Messages:
    86
    Location:
    Bay Area CA
    Thank you! I'll call the water company and get the iron level, and if there is some I'll let you know. The settings on the 7000 right now are the factory defaults - the place I got the unit from said it was pre-programmed and best to leave it alone. If no iron, I'll go ahead and put in your numbers. Thanks again.
  4. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,482
    Location:
    Alaska
    Did you get all the information and programing for the 7000?
    PM if you need them and I can get them to you , Programing is not that hard, there is a flow chart to follow and a step by step guide to change a few of the number settings.
    There are some that you will NOT change..
  5. TWEAK

    TWEAK New Member

    Messages:
    86
    Location:
    Bay Area CA
    I think I have it all... its been a couple years, I will have to dig it out of the file cabinet in the morning. If it's hiding, I'll pm you. I remember the flow chart, I think... it was printed on peach colored paper or something like that? I'll get the iron data and post back if there's iron. Thanks again, I really, really appreciate all your help. It's great that you devote so much time to helping folks out.
  6. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,482
    Location:
    Alaska
    The peach color or orange color sounds right for the programing insert...
  7. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Resin and water use usually does best if you regenerate every 7-9 days. Going longer allows a build up of invisible dirt on the resin beads and that's not good for it.

    I see below in another post that you are using the default settings. Your K of capacity and salt dose lbs will not be right, and the time/minutes the cycle positions of the regeneration runs for will be too high.

    With one person at 60 gals/day times 23 gpg = 1380*8 days = 11040 rounded to 12K, you need to set the salt dose to 4 lbs. Four lbs at the rate of .5 gpm or 1.5 lbs/minute is 6 minutes of Fill time.

    Get into the programming and post the data in each field and we'll go over it for you.

    City water rarely has any iron it after it is treated at the plant and especially if the water is chlorinated.

    If you bought the softener online, tell us who you bought it from to help others.
  8. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I think Gary meant to say that with a fill rate of .5 gpm the needed fill time to get 4 lbs of salt is 2.67 minutes. A 6 minute fill time would give 3 gallons of water and 9 lbs of salt.
  9. TWEAK

    TWEAK New Member

    Messages:
    86
    Location:
    Bay Area CA
    Yes, thanks to all. I did confirm no iron in the water.

    I was able to find all the original paperwork including the programming info flowchart (a miracle!). Can't find the receipt though.... I did get it online.... I don't remember where. Few more places I can look.

    Due to work issues... won't get to actually playing with the program for a few days, or maybe the weekend.

    I hope I can resurrect this thread then?

    Maybe in the meantime, would any of you experts be able to point to some generic information that would actually describe what all the various setting on that valve actually mean? In other words, I don't understand the stages of the regeneration cycle. I guess there's no reason that I would need to, but I'm curious. The valve seems to go through several steps that make up the regeneration process, but the details of the process aren't actually decribed anywhere in my paperwork.

    Thanks again to all!
  10. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,482
    Location:
    Alaska
    There is a manual to another valve from the company that makes your 7000 , it is a 5600 and in that book is shows the different stages to the service and cleaning stages..
  11. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
  12. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Yes it should be 3 minutes.
  13. TWEAK

    TWEAK New Member

    Messages:
    86
    Location:
    Bay Area CA
    Thank you yet again, gents!
  14. TWEAK

    TWEAK New Member

    Messages:
    86
    Location:
    Bay Area CA
    Hi Guys,

    Sorry for the long delay - I've been distracted by other committments.

    When I first posted, the cam option was "downflow" - DF. I noticed that there was very little water in the brine tank. In fact, it was literally barely up to the grid or possibly even a tad below it. Is this why I was getting such low salt usage? I do get much reduced hard water buildup at the fixtures, , but still see significant water spotting. To me the water hasn't felt nearly as "slick" as I expect. Has my effective salt dose just been way too little due to the low water level??

    I know the regen cycles are happening. I did go through a manual regen yesterday and confirm that the valve is moving water around as it should.

    Anyway, yesterday I changed the settings to "downflow fill first" and did a manual regen. The water level at the end of the fill (step 1) is much higher. I can reach down into the salt and feel "wet" several inches above the grid.

    Here are the "Master Programming Mode" settings:

    Format: gallons (U--1)

    Regenerant Flow: downflow fill first (dFFF)

    Regeneration Type: meter delayed (7--3)

    System Capacity: 48000 grains/gallon (C-48)

    Feed water hardness: 23 grains/gallon (H-23)

    Regeneration time: 2 am (2:00)

    Regeneration day override: 7 days (A--7)

    Regeneration Cycle Step Programming:

    ** step 1 - refill: 12 minutes (1--12)
    ** step 2 - brine making: 60 minutes (2--60)
    ** step 3 - backwash: 20 minutes (3--10)
    ** step 4 - brine draw: 60 minutes (4--60)
    ** step 5 - 2nd backwash: 5 minutes (5 --5)
    ** step 6 - rapid rinse: 10 minutes (6--10)

    Flow meter size: 82 pulses per gallon (F--82)

    Safety factor: 15% (cF 15)

    Line frequency: 60 Hz (LF 60)


    If I understand your earlier posts correctly (no guarantee of that!!) then it seems like I should change cycle step #1, currently 12 minutes, down to 3 minutes? And after a regeneration cycle is complete, where do I want the water level in the brine tank relative to the grid - or does it matter? Right now the water level is above the grid. I would guess that in down flow fill first mode, the fill level should be below the salt after the regen is complete.

    Thanks again for all the help!!
  15. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,482
    Location:
    Alaska
    If your brine flow control is .50 gpm then for 12 minutes there will be 6 gallons in the brine tank, 3lbs per 1 gallon of water or 18 lbs of salt.
    That 18 lbs will take between 2-3 hours to make up.. if any changes I would take the step 2 brine making from 60 minutes to 120 minutes.

    I would take the capacity from 48k down to 38k

    Those are the only two that I would do.

    Just my view..
  16. TWEAK

    TWEAK New Member

    Messages:
    86
    Location:
    Bay Area CA
    Thanks for the comments, but now I'm confused.

    Gary was talking about a salt dose of 4 pounds, based on my usage. Is the right number 18 pounds? Yikes, that seems like a lot of salt.

    Any comments on the height of the water before fill relative to the salt grid? Does it matter?

    Finally, why would one choose "df" over "dfff" or visa-versa? IS there a disadvantage to letting the brine sit in the tank all week between regenerations?

    Thanks again for your insight!
  17. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,482
    Location:
    Alaska
    If yours is an upflow it is going to be making the brine before it cleans...
    Down flow that I use refills the brine tank at the end and then X number of days later it cleans.. x could be 2 days or 10 days.

    Most of the time the 18" dia brine tank with a 4" high salt grid will have about 1-2" of water above the grid.

    Check the brine flow control .. what is the gpm? .5gpm .25gpm 1.0gpm take that number multiply it by the time for the refill that gives the gallons going to the brine tank.
    Then 3lbs of salt per gallon of water for max of 26-27% to get to that one needs 2-3 hours of time for the water and the salt to get to know each other.

    With an up flow the brine is getting to the resin at the start and not having to go through 15" of water before it starts to clean the resin... so yes you can use less salt to get close to the same capacity that the down flow would give.
  18. TWEAK

    TWEAK New Member

    Messages:
    86
    Location:
    Bay Area CA
    Where do I find the brine flow control number? It's not in the programming manual or installation instructions.

    The fleck 7000SXT has three settings, "downflow", "downflow fill first" and "filter". As I read the Fleck manual, the "filter" is not really for water softeners. "Downflow" fills at the end of the regen cycle and the brine forms before/until the next regen. "Downflow fill first" fills at the start and allows time for the salt to dissolve as part of the regen. But they are both downflow. Which do you recommend?
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2010
  19. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    "the cam", there is no cam, it is actually the direction of the flow of brine water through the resin bed. Standard is down (flow) through the bed.

    The amount of water in the brine tank is dictated by the salt dose and not important and it will be what it is based on your Refill time and the height of the salt grid, and it doesn't have to be above the grid as long as water can get into the cup shaped legs of the grid. They usually have a hole in the bottom.

    Pre refill or Refill first means add the water for the salt dose lbs at the beginning of a regeneration and then wait for a period of time for the salt to dissolve and then use it instead of at the end of a regeneration where it sits there until the next regeneration. Pre Refill means the brine will be used in the slow rinse/brine draw position and there will only be a couple inches of water in the salt tank between regenerations.

    The reason you saw the water level increase is because the valve added your 6 gallons of brine makeup water to what was already in the tank. During the next regeneration it will be sucked out and none added until next week etc..

    It doesn't matter how much water is in the salt tank.

    With one person at 60 gals/day times 23 gpg = 1380*8 days = 11040 rounded to 12K, you need to set the salt dose to 4 lbs. Four lbs at the rate of .5 gpm or 1.5 lbs/minute is 3 minutes of Fill time.

    Format: gallons (U--1)
    Regenerant Flow: downflow fill first (dFFF)
    Regeneration Type: meter delayed (7--3)
    System Capacity: 12000 grains/gallon (C-12)
    Feed water hardness: 23 grains/gallon (H-23)
    Regeneration time: 2 am (2:00)
    Regeneration day override: 8 days (A--8)
    Regeneration Cycle Step Programming:
    ** step 1 - refill: 4 minutes (1--4)
    ** step 2 - brine making: 120 minutes (2--120)
    ** step 3 - backwash: 6 minutes (3--6)
    ** step 4 - brine draw: 45 minutes (4--45)
    ** step 5 - 2nd backwash: 5 minutes (5 --5)
    ** step 6 - rapid rinse: 5 minutes (6--5)

    Safety factor: 15% (cF 15)

    That gets you 443 gals and 7 days with better than a 24 hr reserve and a calendar override of 8 days and great salt and water efficiency and keeps the salt tank cleaner than Post Refill would.

    DO NOT let it run out of salt. If you do you do 2 manual regens one right after teh other with no water use during or between and you do them at 22.5 lbs of salt and then when done, change the salt dose back to 4 lbs.
  20. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    The brine line flow control (BLFC) gpm is on a sticker where the brine line or drain line attaches to the control valve.

    You probably do not have a counter-current (upflow) type softener (control valve). You have a standard down flow co-current. Brine flow down through the resin bed instead of up through it.
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