Franklin VFD backfeed, led's flicker-any fix??

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Boycedrilling

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Here's a newsletter that Franklin published a few years ago, about emi.

http://franklin-electric.com/media/documents/vol25no5.pdf

You will see that proper grounding can be a significant component. Also metallic conduit can make a difference. Not for grounding, but for shielding.

On the one Subdrive that we've had a problem, we haven't done anything. The customer decided that the nuisance wasn't worth the cost of trying to eliminate the problem. He just doesn't use the dimmer any more.

On the commercial Yaskawa drives I install, we use TCI brand KLR series line reactors. These cost about the same as the Franklin unit you have already purchased for your horsepower or amperage rating. The TCI filters are for 3 phase input, don't know if they are suited for single phase. On Yaskawa drives, we ALWAYS use a load reactor or dv/dt filter depending on the voltage and the distance between the vfd and the motor. We may or may not install a line reactor on the input side of the vfd. in a submersible motor application you always need a filter on the output of the vfd, and we may or may not need one on the input. Some vfd's have these built in. The Yaskawa does not have any filters built into it and they have to be added.
 

Craigpump

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Philly,
You mention energy efficiency, I wonder if anyone has done real world testing to see just how much a VFD system saves over its lifetime, in energy use, upfront installation costs and service compared to a conventional dumb pump system.
 

DonL

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Appreciate the info and your time. What kind of filter are you thinking? I tried the emi filter from franklin on the input side of the controller and no change.


A 1:1 Isolation transformer may be your best bet.

Good Luck on your project.
 

Valveman

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Philly,
You mention energy efficiency, I wonder if anyone has done real world testing to see just how much a VFD system saves over its lifetime, in energy use, upfront installation costs and service compared to a conventional dumb pump system.

Because they can see it reduces the amperage needed to spin the pump and motor, many people wrongly believe a VFD saves energy. In reality, reducing a pumps speed with a VFD greatly increases the kilowatts per gallon produced.

Let me put that another way. The more a VFD decreases the pumps speed and amperage, the more energy is used per gallon produced. So not only does a VFD NOT save energy, it actually WASTE energy in many ways. How many times and how many ways can I say this??

The biggest lie perpetuated in the pump industry is that VFD’s save energy. Kilowatts per production, is the only true measure of efficiency. Anytime you slow a pump down with a VFD, you are using more energy per gallon produced. A VFD also uses additionally energy itself, like any computer. The pulsing DC power coming from a VFD also reduces the efficiency of the pump/motor. So like in the case Boyce mentioned where the pump is always producing 300 GPM and working at full speed anyway, the VFD is still causing more energy to be used per gallon produced.

On top of that, to prevent harmonics caused by the VFD, every filter or reactor added produces heat and waste even more energy.

Even with all the new technology available, the most efficient way to pump a gallon of water is still with an old dumb pump and the old pressure tank only method. In this way the pump is working at it Best Efficiency Point (BEP) delivering maximum flow or the pump is off. The only way to improve on the efficiency of the old pressure tank only method is to reduce the cycling on/off by using the pump at maximum flow whenever possible.

Boyce has done an excellent job explaining all the grounding and filtering needed with VFD’s to reduce the harmonic problem. But the best way to eliminate harmonics is to eliminate the VFD. And if your goal is saving energy, you will want to do away with the VFD anyway. At maximum pump flow a VFD is only costing you about 5% to 8% extra energy, depending on how many filters you need. But if you run at really low flow a VFD can increase the energy cost per gallon by as much as 500%.

It also takes a lot of energy to mine, manufacture, transport, and install pumps, motors, and VFD’s. Considering the short life expectancy of VFD’s and the pump/motors they control, this causes even more energy loss.

Boyce also does a good job explaining a few of the problems associated with VFD’s. My question has always been, since VFD’s actually cause more energy to be used, how can they be worth any added expense and trouble?

Now having said all that I am not sure harmonics are the real problem with the light dimmer. As Boyce explained the Sub Drive uses a 1 PSI pressure switch instead of a pressure transducer. This switch causes the pump/motor to bounce from full speed to half speed about 45 times per minute. This amperage bounce can only be seen with an old analog type amp meter, by watching the needle bounce up and down. If the flickering lights correspond to the switch bouncing 45 times per minute, then the flicker is caused by loading and unloading of the power supplied (switch), not harmonics.

You can test this by opening up enough water to keep the pump at a lower pressure than the switch setting. This will keep the switch closed and not let it bounce on and off. If the lights don’t flicker when the pump is running at full speed/full flow, then the switch, not harmonics is your problem. If the lights still flicker, the filters might help.

I have helped several people switch out Franklin Sub Drives for a $130 VFD from Driveswarehouse.com. These standard drives can still ramp up the pump speed to 80 Hz as required with the ¾ pump on the 1.5HP motor. These standard drives also use a pressure transducer instead of the 1 PSI switch, so there is no pressure bouncing. (loading/unloading, which I believe is causing the lights to flicker) These standard drives are also able to convert single phase power to three phase, so you can utilize the three phase motor you got stuck with.
Oh and I guess I should mention that Sub Drives and conventional drives will both work with CSV’s.
With the Sub Drive you can use a CSV and a standard 40/60 switch to eliminate the 45 times per minute bounce caused by the “Sub Drive type switch”. I am still thinking this will solve the flicker problem.
With a conventional drive the CSV can eliminate the need for a pressure transducer. Start/stop the drive with the standard 40/60 pressure switch and let the CSV control the flow and pressure.

You fell for the VFD hype like so many others. Now you have to figure a way out of that energy wasting money pit.

Here are a couple of links to get you started on WHY VFD’s do not save energy, but everything you really need to know is on the pump curve. Study the Horsepower section of a pump curve and it will all start to make sense.
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/vfd-energy_15.html
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/vfd-energy_8.html
 

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Thought you might like to hear from someone with a pump like that.

From a Home Owner with a Sub Drive (2012)
"I have a system I installed in 2006, which consists of a CP-75 constant pressure pump, feeding a 4-ton system, and then draining into a different well. The flow is set to about 12 GPM. I also use water for irrigation around the house, during the dry season.

The pump head is a F&W 4F19S10, and after the first three months of use, I started getting metal particles into the filter I placed before the HP. The pump failed the first day below zero. Luckly I had a pump in the discharge well, and was able to use that to heat until a warranty pump could be shipped and installed.

Now, about 6 years later, the pump has failed again. It has been suggested that the overdriven pumps, like the CP-75 system uses, are prone to early failures.

I am wondering if anyone with more information or experience might comment on this. Meanwhile I'm getting tired of pulling the well pump."
 

Valveman

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While I am on my soap box see if you can find anywhere Franklin says those drives will save energy. They let you believe it, but they would never put it in writing because it isn't true.
 

DonL

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While I am on my soap box see if you can find anywhere Franklin says those drives will save energy. They let you believe it, but they would never put it in writing because it isn't true.


They also say no RFI/EMI problems. People do like smoke being blown up their ass.

My guess is that big of motor and that small of pump, Could be making it ramp up and down, like you was saying.

If that house has a temporary electric feed, it could be a voltage drop problem.

It takes power to move water, you do not get something for nothing.
 

Philly406

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Because they can see it reduces the amperage needed to spin the pump and motor, many people wrongly believe a VFD saves energy. In reality, reducing a pumps speed with a VFD greatly increases the kilowatts per gallon produced.

Let me put that another way. The more a VFD decreases the pumps speed and amperage, the more energy is used per gallon produced. So not only does a VFD NOT save energy, it actually WASTE energy in many ways. How many times and how many ways can I say this??

The biggest lie perpetuated in the pump industry is that VFD’s save energy. Kilowatts per production, is the only true measure of efficiency. Anytime you slow a pump down with a VFD, you are using more energy per gallon produced. A VFD also uses additionally energy itself, like any computer. The pulsing DC power coming from a VFD also reduces the efficiency of the pump/motor. So like in the case Boyce mentioned where the pump is always producing 300 GPM and working at full speed anyway, the VFD is still causing more energy to be used per gallon produced.

On top of that, to prevent harmonics caused by the VFD, every filter or reactor added produces heat and waste even more energy.

Even with all the new technology available, the most efficient way to pump a gallon of water is still with an old dumb pump and the old pressure tank only method. In this way the pump is working at it Best Efficiency Point (BEP) delivering maximum flow or the pump is off. The only way to improve on the efficiency of the old pressure tank only method is to reduce the cycling on/off by using the pump at maximum flow whenever possible.

Boyce has done an excellent job explaining all the grounding and filtering needed with VFD’s to reduce the harmonic problem. But the best way to eliminate harmonics is to eliminate the VFD. And if your goal is saving energy, you will want to do away with the VFD anyway. At maximum pump flow a VFD is only costing you about 5% to 8% extra energy, depending on how many filters you need. But if you run at really low flow a VFD can increase the energy cost per gallon by as much as 500%.

It also takes a lot of energy to mine, manufacture, transport, and install pumps, motors, and VFD’s. Considering the short life expectancy of VFD’s and the pump/motors they control, this causes even more energy loss.

Boyce also does a good job explaining a few of the problems associated with VFD’s. My question has always been, since VFD’s actually cause more energy to be used, how can they be worth any added expense and trouble?

Now having said all that I am not sure harmonics are the real problem with the light dimmer. As Boyce explained the Sub Drive uses a 1 PSI pressure switch instead of a pressure transducer. This switch causes the pump/motor to bounce from full speed to half speed about 45 times per minute. This amperage bounce can only be seen with an old analog type amp meter, by watching the needle bounce up and down. If the flickering lights correspond to the switch bouncing 45 times per minute, then the flicker is caused by loading and unloading of the power supplied (switch), not harmonics.

You can test this by opening up enough water to keep the pump at a lower pressure than the switch setting. This will keep the switch closed and not let it bounce on and off. If the lights don’t flicker when the pump is running at full speed/full flow, then the switch, not harmonics is your problem. If the lights still flicker, the filters might help.

I have helped several people switch out Franklin Sub Drives for a $130 VFD from Driveswarehouse.com. These standard drives can still ramp up the pump speed to 80 Hz as required with the ¾ pump on the 1.5HP motor. These standard drives also use a pressure transducer instead of the 1 PSI switch, so there is no pressure bouncing. (loading/unloading, which I believe is causing the lights to flicker) These standard drives are also able to convert single phase power to three phase, so you can utilize the three phase motor you got stuck with.
Oh and I guess I should mention that Sub Drives and conventional drives will both work with CSV’s.
With the Sub Drive you can use a CSV and a standard 40/60 switch to eliminate the 45 times per minute bounce caused by the “Sub Drive type switch”. I am still thinking this will solve the flicker problem.
With a conventional drive the CSV can eliminate the need for a pressure transducer. Start/stop the drive with the standard 40/60 pressure switch and let the CSV control the flow and pressure.

You fell for the VFD hype like so many others. Now you have to figure a way out of that energy wasting money pit.

Here are a couple of links to get you started on WHY VFD’s do not save energy, but everything you really need to know is on the pump curve. Study the Horsepower section of a pump curve and it will all start to make sense.
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/vfd-energy_15.html
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/vfd-energy_8.html
Appreciate the information. When I'm back out at the project I'll start working from the pressure switch angle and see what I come up with. Sometimes when I switch on various breakers there is one flicker but its no big deal since its only one time. It makes sense that the pressure switch cycling that much maybe my issue.
 

Philly406

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While I am on my soap box see if you can find anywhere Franklin says those drives will save energy. They let you believe it, but they would never put it in writing because it isn't true.
Well kinda a bittersweet ending to this. After everyone's advice (forums, talking to; electricians, franklin/flint and waling reps, drillers and distributer's) and implementing everything with no success, I bit the financial bullet and had the VFD system taken out today and replaced with the old reliable pressure tank and 230 single phase submersible. My electrical system is now purring like a kitten(LED's with dimmers are working as designed, no more feedback into septic alarm). Appreciate everyone's help and advice. I hope the next person that has this problem can figure it out without all the headache I went through/replacing the pump. (Side note, the final straw was that I got word back from the power company after they pulled the recorder saying that there side of the system was all in check. They did say that the recorder picked up some weird readings when that vfd kicked on, said one leg was initially bursting 80amps and the other only 40-50amps and then they'd level out to 7ish. Kinda crazy since they are on 15amp breaker. Let distributor know what power company found and he let me try there test brain box and still no change so I had the system taken out.) Thanks again everyone for trying to noodle this out with me!!
 
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