Footing Drains Connected to Septic?

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Reicherb

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We recently moved into a 1966 house in Michigan and have a septic tank for the first time. I'm told that the tank and leak field were replaced about 2 years ago. I recently discovered that when we use water in any fixture in the house, that the flow from the footing drains into the sump crock increases. I dumped a couple of gallons of expired milk into the kitchen sink and sure enough the sump crock turned white.

I'm surprised that the footing drains are connected to the waste water system. Is this ok?

The sump pump discharges into the septic tank as well. Is this ok?

Do I need to get a plumber out here to investigate and separate the systems? Of course it's a finished basements with carpet over a concrete floor.

Thanks,

Brad
 

Cacher_Chick

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I would be looking for an area that the building drain runs adjacent to the foundation drain, where you would be likely to be getting crossover from a leak.

Foundation drains are intended to move clear groundwater and will fail if greywater\solids\grease enters the system.

If the foundation drains are needed for removal of groundwater, pumping that amount of groundwater into your septic system will cause it to fail also.
 

Reicherb

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That's not what I was hoping to hear... Would you suspect the leak is inside the foundation? Aka, rip up the floor?
 

LLigetfa

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I doubt you will find someone on the internet that has the clairvoyance to "see" what you cannot. Hire a good plumber that has a good camera system to inspect your plumbing.

How do you know that the sump drains into the septic system and not the other way around? Some folk with septic system problems have been known to divert some "grey water" to the sump to bypass the septic system.
 

Reach4

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It is not necessarily a leak. It may be connected as the builder intended. Make sure the toilets do not drain into the sump pit.

That pit is serving as a mixed use, and it probably should be considered a sewage pit. A sewage pit should be sealed and properly vented.

Ideally the perimeter drain would not be fed into the sewage pit, because it increases the load on the septic system.

The best solution would be to separate the perimeter drain water into a sump with a sump pump. This water would be piped out to a pop-up or some other place. Everything else in the basement would go to a new sealed vented septic pit with a sewage ejector pump. Things above the basement could be piped to the pit, but they may be gravity fed to new or existing pipes that go to the septic tank. A new pipe through the wall of the basement to the septic tank is often easier than trying to connect to an existing pipe. This also gives some redundancy in the case of a clog.

For tracking where water is going, they sell dye for the purpose. Search for sewer tracing dye. You can probably order some for $25 or so.

Fixing it right is going to cost you. Fixing it wrong may cost more. While doing this, consider what a big rain will bring you. You may want to consider what it would take to make your perimeter drain to get pumped to the yard if the electricity goes out. The worst thing you could do is to just cut the perimeter drain. You have a finished basement, and you want to make sure the storm water goes elsewhere.

I would think that the plumber you get to design and implement the system should be one who does septic work a fair amount of the time.
 

Reicherb

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I doubt you will find someone on the internet that has the clairvoyance to "see" what you cannot. Hire a good plumber that has a good camera system to inspect your plumbing.

I didn't expect anyone to be clairvoyant. That's why I said do you "suspect" thinking experienced people would have an idea where this stuff typicall


How do you know that the sump drains into the septic system and not the other way around? Some folk with septic system problems have been known to divert some "grey water" to the sump to bypass the septic system.

I know that the sump drains into the septic because I have followed the line to the main stack of the house.

If it means anything, the house has 2 stacks. The main stack and a stack from an addition that contains a bathroom and a laundry drain. The addition stack is at the opposite end of the house from the sump and exits well above the level of the basement floor. The main stack is much closer to the sump and does go into the basement floor. The main stack has a kitchen and bathroom as well as the sump discharge connected to it.
 

Reicherb

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It is not necessarily a leak. It may be connected as the builder intended. Make sure the toilets do not drain into the sump pit.

That pit is serving as a mixed use, and it probably should be considered a sewage pit. A sewage pit should be sealed and properly vented.

Ideally the perimeter drain would not be fed into the sewage pit, because it increases the load on the septic system.

The best solution would be to separate the perimeter drain water into a sump with a sump pump. This water would be piped out to a pop-up or some other place. Everything else in the basement would go to a new sealed vented septic pit with a sewage ejector pump. Things above the basement could be piped to the pit, but they may be gravity fed to new or existing pipes that go to the septic tank. A new pipe through the wall of the basement to the septic tank is often easier than trying to connect to an existing pipe. This also gives some redundancy in the case of a clog.

For tracking where water is going, they sell dye for the purpose. Search for sewer tracing dye. You can probably order some for $25 or so.

Fixing it right is going to cost you. Fixing it wrong may cost more. While doing this, consider what a big rain will bring you. You may want to consider what it would take to make your perimeter drain to get pumped to the yard if the electricity goes out. The worst thing you could do is to just cut the perimeter drain. You have a finished basement, and you want to make sure the storm water goes elsewhere.

I would think that the plumber you get to design and implement the system should be one who does septic work a fair amount of the time.

I do plan to fix it right but wasn't expecting what now looks like a huge cost... I'll be seeking a plumber tomorrow morning.
 

Reach4

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I do plan to fix it right but wasn't expecting what now looks like a huge cost... I'll be seeking a plumber tomorrow morning.

One possibility to improve things without tearing up (or minimize tearing up) the basement floor would be to put a sealed cover and vent on your existing pit. Make sure the pump is a grinder ejector pump rather than a sump pump. Then have an outside sump pit installed to connect to the perimeter drain. I presume that there is a way to use an insulated cover to prevent freezing in your area.

I am not familiar with the methods to do what I am suggesting, but I have to believe it is practical.

My washer feeds into my sump pit, and my sump pit feeds into my septic. I am considering putting in a valve that I would flip when doing laundry, and run the pit to the yard otherwise.
 

LLigetfa

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I didn't expect anyone to be clairvoyant.
We cannot "see" what you see, only what you describe.

I know that the sump drains into the septic because I have followed the line to the main stack of the house.
I still have to wonder if the sump pit is as Reach4 described, a sewage pit and so the milk seen may be normal. Again, we have only your explanation to go on. You might want to try using a tracer dye poured down some other drains before incurring the cost of a plumber.
 

LLigetfa

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My washer feeds into my sump pit, and my sump pit feeds into my septic. I am considering putting in a valve that I would flip when doing laundry, and run the pit to the yard otherwise.

My perimeter drains go into my sump pit. My iron filter and my water softener drain into the sump pit as well. The sump pump drains to a natural open ditch on my property. All else goes into the septic tank.
 

DonL

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Septic Tank systems are not sealed water systems.

Water will seek the lowest level, and the septic tank does not care where the water is coming from, It will take the water.

It can come from the field lines.

The system is most likely full, and more water has no where to go, even if the water is coming from the normal location.

The most common thing that keeps a Septic Tank full is a bad fill valve in the outhouse.


Have a Happy New Year.
 

LLigetfa

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A septic tank is designed to always be at the level of the out port. If it backs up to the higher "in" port, then that is not good.

A leach field design varies by region. Below is a typical American design. Here in Ontario Canada, they are set deeper and current regs require they be raised beds. Mine is sunk 2 feet below grade, and raised 3 feet above grade, for a total of 5 feet. In theory, the level of the the water table should never reach the field pipe.

figure_1.png
 

Reicherb

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Thanks for all of the info. I'm going to go ahead and pay a plumber to run a camera down the lines and see what goes where. The volume of water in the septic crock seems to be increasing so my guess is that something is wrong somewhere.
 

LLigetfa

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The volume of water in the septic crock seems to be increasing so my guess is that something is wrong somewhere.

As I mentioned, the level does not normally fluctuate much at all. It is possible that at times the ground may get saturated causing the level to rise. In Winter the dissipation through evaporation may be reduced and if the tank is overwhelmed you could be in for a long miserable Winter, so it is best to keep the volume going into the tank at a minimum.

800px-Septic_tank.png
 
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