Flow Rite Products well cap

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by brods, May 22, 2012.

  1. brods

    brods New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    michigan
    Great site. Enjoyed following the story of 75 year old Fred reclaiming his well http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?6613-How-to-remove-deep-well-cap

    I've tried searching for any information on the Flow Rite (or any well cap) with the single center bolt and only come up with some off hand references warning not to mess with it and call a pro. Such as the following:
    That just makes me more determined to find out what is so special about this setup. I understand what a pitless adapter is. Not sure what exactly this center bolt connects to. Does the center bolt hold up the entire pump? I would be grateful for any links or info on this style of well.
  2. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,461
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I am not familiar with that one. Maybe a picture would help.
  3. brods

    brods New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    michigan
    [​IMG]

    Flow-rite Products Company, Division of Bradlyn Industries

    Seems Bradlyn Ind. is no longer doing business.

    The well was probably installed in the early 1970's and is a 4" casing. Apparently the pump was replaced in 1999 along with 63' of 1" pipe (doesn't say if plastic or steel) and 63' pump cable. The line from the well to the house was replaced with plastic in 2001, don't know what the original material was.

    This is from receipts left by the previous owner.
    Last edited: May 24, 2012
  4. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,461
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I can't imagine that bolt doing anything but releasing the cap. I don't know how you would be able to get a hold on the drop pipe before removing the cap. But it is a new one for me. Not that many pitless adapters in my part of the country.
  5. brods

    brods New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    michigan
    Thanks for trying valveman. The bolt can be loosened and it will start to back out. Only did a turn or so. When gently tapped on the bolt will drop and one can feel the weight on it. I tightened it back up and figured more info was needed before proceeding. Looking in the electrical cover a 1" steel pipe can be seen. Unfortunately when looking down the well the electrical cable blocks the view of the pitless. I'm guessing it is some version of this with the bolt going all the way to the top:

    [​IMG]



    I'm also interested in a CSV but was a bit put off by the aggressive attack on VFDs on the CSV site.

    Their site promotes the CSV as being easier on the downstream piping (makes sense) but what about the piping upstream of the CSV that will now be subject to the pump's maximum pressure? It appears the pump in my well maxes about 300' (about 130 psi). Have they had marginal upstream pipes fail after installing a CSV?

    Also, most centrifugal pumps are supposed to be operated near BEP or the side loads on the impellers becomes unbalanced. Are submersible well pumps dual volute or of some other design that reduces these side loads at low flowrates?
  6. masterpumpman

    masterpumpman New Member

    Messages:
    729
    Location:
    Virginia Beach, VA
    I've been in the drilling/pump business all my life (75 plus years) and have never seen such a cap. . . you're on your own there. CSV is pretty aggressive against VFD pumps but as they say "What is, is!" Installers that have used CSV's love them. People that have used VFD's think wasted dollars!
  7. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,172
    Location:
    Maine
    I've seen about a half dozen or so. When you back off the bolt it releases pressure on a cam that pushes the seal against the outlet of the pitless. IIRC the bolt has a stop so that you can't back it all the way out because if you did, or powered through the stop the whole assembly heads south. The cap, adapter, pipe and pump all come out together or once you get the pitless stuff clear of the well head you can remove it and just pull pipe from there.
  8. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,461
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I’m sorry but there is no nice way to say that VFD’s are a scam. I do not say this simply because I sell a competing product. I say this because I was first and foremost an expert on VFD’s, and know all to well the many pitfalls and side effects. VFD’s do not save energy. Their most important design characteristic is to separate you from as much of your money as possible. I sometimes feel I am the only one willing to stand up and say “the emperor is not wearing any cloths”. However, for those of us who really understand how VFD’s work, the emperor is absolutely butt naked.

    This is embarrassing to say, and humiliating for those who are slow to understand it. But it is the honest truth. Just look at it from the pump manufacturers point of view. They already have planned to get an average of $700 from you for a new standard pump every 7 years. This way they will only get $2100 of your money in 21 years. Now if they can talk you into an $1800 VFD system, and you have to purchase a new $800 controller in an average of 3 years, they already have as much of your money as they would normally have gotten in 25 years. If you continue to spend money replacing the VFD, they continue to laugh all the way to the bank. If you decide you have had enough of being out of water and spending too much money on VFD’s, oh well, they already have 25 years worth of your money.

    Keeping you worried about backpressure blowing up your pipe (which it won’t), and side loads making impellers vibrate (which it won’t), is their way of trying to keep you from using a disruptive product like the CSV. The CSV can make a $700 pump last 20 years, and can work with a very small pressure tank. This is really good for the end user, but is completely disruptive to pump manufacturers. So I hope you can see why they try to make the CSV sound bad and try to make me look Un-American for saying negative things about a VFD.
  9. brods

    brods New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    michigan
    Wow, too much coffee or something? A VFD is just a tool. Like any tool it can be useful when properly applied or it can be counterproductive when misapplied. I have no interest in a VFD for my well pump so I don’t need to be talked out of one. My background is in industrial filtration and my questions about the effects of the CSV on centrifugal pumps and piping come from my experiences in that field. Obviously you have a bone to pick within your industry and maybe you have good reasons. Be that as it may, blanket statements claiming VFDs are a scam are a put off to anyone who has ever found them useful. Your accusations of fraud and deceit are better suited to political campaigns rather than as a means to showcase your product.

    The CSV appears to be an elegant, KISS approach to minimize short cycling. Incorporating the small bypass into the valve seat to prevent clogging was clever. In theory it sounds great, but as always, the devil is in the details. Since it appears you are more interested in slamming VFDs than discussing the potential side effects of the CSV we should just drop the subject.

    Tom Sawyer, thanks for the info on the well cap.
  10. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,172
    Location:
    Maine
    Fraud aside it is interesting to note that almost every industry that requires pumping of fluids or air have gone to VFD motor control. In the HVAC industry VFD pumping of hydronic water for radiant heat as well as VFD pumping for ground water heat pumps and VFD blowers for AC/heat are rapidly becoming the industry standard because of the infinately variable control that these systems provide. Being able to control delta T or P over a range of parameters makes balancing and delivery much more precise. There really is no reason why this technology should not be applied to water well pumping as well and while admittedly there were problems early on with certain manufacturers pumps those issues have been taken care of and we are not seeing anything near the earlier failure rates. Though the 7 year average for standard pump life gets bandied around a lot, I would like to know where those numbers come from because typically I am seeing 15 to 25 years.

    http://www.pumped101.com/
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2012
  11. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,973
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    It may be prudent to call the company listed on the receipt and ask them since they apparently worked on it and so should be familiar with it.

    As for the CSV and hold-back pressure or side loading, it does sound like the usual FUD yarn opponents will spin. I'm pretty sure you could get a cut-away view of the pump to see if it has twin volutes. Pipe rated PSI versus burst PSI is very different. I've done a lot of hydrostatic testing in my youth, and we often tested to well over twice the rated PSI. Hard starts/stops can produce water hammer that is far more destructive than the hold-back pressure of the CSV. The CSV will soften the starts/stops and reduce water hammer significantly.
  12. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,461
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Sure there are good applications for VFD’s. But we are in a well and pump forum, so when I say VFD’s are a scam, I am only talking about pump systems that must always provide a certain amount of head or pressure. (like every well pump or booster system)

    Fans, conveyor belts, treadmills, even sewage pumps can all benefit from VFD’s. However, the affinity law, which a lot of people like to claim shows how much energy is saved by reducing the RPM, also states that head or pressure is lost by the square of the speed. Losing head by the square of the speed greatly reduces the usefulness of a VFD when pumping from a well that will always be 100’ deep, and must always produce 50 PSI pressure to the house. A VFD might be advantageous if the well could sometimes be only 20’ deep, and sometimes we could live with only 20 PSI in the house, which isn’t possible.

    VFD’s are being used in this industry simply because the installer doesn’t know how a pump works or doesn’t know how to properly size a pump. The supplier doesn’t know either and just suggest a VFD because they think it will make any pump do any job, which isn’t true. More importantly, they recommend a VFD because it is the most expensive item on the shelf, and salesman work on commissions.

    I have been privileged to be able to speak to people in all aspects of this industry for more than forty years. The most important people I have spoken to are retired. And being retired, they were able to tell me of the past backroom discussions at many pump manufacturers. These backroom discussions revealed that Cycle Stop Valves make pumps last longer and are therefore to be discouraged by any means. In the same breath they said VFD’s need to be heavily promoted because they greatly increase profits, partly because they further shorten the life span of a pump system. “Increased profits” and “good for the consumer” are always complete opposites.

    The CSV is a disruptive product. It makes pumps last longer, use smaller tanks, and disrupts a lot of other related products and services. A product that cost the consumer less is disruptive to the profits of the manufacturers. Which is why all pump companies spend a lot of money promoting VFD’s and disavowing CSV’s.

    I don’t know that much about other industries like fans, conveyor belts, and sewage pumps. But the VFD is being so misapplied in the well pump industry because of a lack of knowledge or a desire to increase profits, that it makes me wonder if the same thing is happening in other industries.

    So yes “it is interesting to note that almost every industry that requires pumping of fluids or air have gone to VFD motor control”. This should be a red flag to the consumer. Industry does not promote products that save the consumer money, because that would mean they make less profit or go out of business.

    I have discussed the potential side effects of the CSV ad-nauseam. The most important thing to know is that in 20 years, none of these potential things have happened. But it still seems to be the “yarn my opponents continue to spin” about the CSV.

    I am sorry if my accusations of fraud and deceit have offended anyone. But my identity is not unknown, and it should be noted that in all these years no company has tried to stop me from saying such things. Maybe that is because they could stop me from slander and libel accusations, but not from telling the truth.
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