Fleck 9100 SXT valve problems returned 60 days after replacing seals

[polychromeuganda]

Unless someone has seen this happen before and has some idea for a useful repair I think I should replace the valve with the brass 9000 series Fleck or a Clack twin tank valve. 3 1/2 years ago when I installed this the Clack twin was new but apparently quietly available to DIY types. I don't see Clack advertised to DIY but obviously I'm not a fan of Pentair/Fleck at this point. The history follows...

I installed a Fleck 9100 SXT with 2 x 1.5 cu ft resin tanks etc 3 1/2 years ago. 2 months ago it failed to deliver soft water. It was readily apparent that it wasn't drawing brine during regeneration. A couple rounds of fussing with injectors and flow restrictions that were already in good working order failed to cause it to draw brine. Since a leaking timer valve would prevent the injector from drawing brine I disassembled the upper and lower valves to inspect them. I found the lower valve iron fouled on the seal surfaces and on the walls of the valve body, with trace deposits on the valve core. I replaced the seals and spacers in both valves and used vinegar on (many) cotton swabs to carefully clean all traces of iron from the valve body and soaked the valve cores in vinegar to clear the small amount of iron residue clinging to them with swabs. The original seals and spacers were iron loaded, but after tossing them in the pail of vinegar and removing the iron they appeared to be in as good condition as the replacement parts, no wear, no hardening, no cracks, cuts, nicks, abrasions... The valve cores had all of their green coating and no sign of wear or abrasion, and were re-used. I didn't detect any significant roughness on the plastic surface of the valve body, but I had nothing to compare it to. After reassembling the valve and regenerating both tanks everything worked perfectly and the water quality was fully restored.

Until yesterday. In winter the indoor pool loses water to evaporation and I added around 800 gallons between 4pm and 7pm. Around 8pm the softener regenerated. The domestic water was suddenly as if it were untreated. This morning I forced a regeneration which switches the house to the the other media tank. No joy. I verified that the bypass valve is closed.

I haven't disassembled the softener valve yet and I'm not sure I should bother. The main valve(s) are clearly leaking again and I've recently performed the only suitable service procedure. My expectation is that the composition of the plastic valve body is ill suited to the slightly acidic water in the NorthEast eventually allowing iron to bind to the surface leading to seal leakage, I wouldn't be surprised if its a consequence of a plastic formula selected to resist iron deposition in the high pH water found in the rest of the country.

I also understand that Pentair denies all warranty claims for their water valves, Their logic is reported to be that valves leak when the seals fail and seals are a wear item not covered by the warranty. Obviously I disagree with that premise, from my perspective it looks like a failing plastic valve body is preventing the seals from functioning. I don't think I'd make much progress persuading Pentair to take that view, so I'm looking to buy something better suited.

 

[Reach4]

The original seals and spacers were iron loaded, but after tossing them in the pail of vinegar and removing the iron they appeared to be in as good condition as the replacement parts, no wear, no hardening, no cracks, cuts, nicks, abrasions...

How much iron do you have in your well water?
I have not seen vinegar recommended for cleaning out iron. I would consider Super Iron Out. Smells not so good, but it is good for iron.

Do you have a cartridge filter before the softener to remove sand?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[polychromeuganda]

No sediment cartridge, its not needed, there's no sediment. There hasn't been any sediment since it was flushed after drilling. Except for the clear iron, its really good water. The well is around 260' deep in granite bedrock, the soil is shallow (<20'). There's 120' of casing, the pump is set at about 60' and the well overflows (i.e. its artesian) unless its in heavy use (like filling the pool). (its seasonal, overflow is 24/7 and varies from 2 to 8 gpm during the year, and is carried in a 1.5" poly pipe 100' long with 20' of vertical drop)

Vinegar was only used for loosening and removing the iron on the disassembled plastic valve body. The two oxidation states of iron convert easily so almost every acid will reduce insoluble ferric iron oxide to the soluble ferrous oxide, weaker acids are just slower. Without knowing the acid resistance of the plastic used to make the valve, a weak organic acid was a safe choice. Vinegar (acteic acid) happened to be handy. It would probably have been faster using citric acid, but I didn't have any handy.

Super Iron out is largely sodium sulfite and sodium bisulfite. Adding water would make H2SO3 but it will instantly re-form as H2SO4 aka sulfuric acid - which probably explains the smell you don't like. Concentated sulfuric acid would be safe for some plastics and not for others. I'm sure its safe when highly diluted, but with only as much as I could put on a cotton swab, highly diluted would be highly ineffective. Without knowing if there was a dilution that was both safe and effective I didn't try either of the common industrial acids (hydrochloric and sulfuric) and I chose something safe even if its slow.

The water analysis 3 years ago was very similar to 5 or 6 others done over the last 35 years...

Well Water After Softener Units
TDS 45 45
pH 6.5* 6.7*
Total Alkalinity 29 45 ppm
Total Chlorine 0.0 0.1 ppm
Total Hardness 82 40 ppm
Total Hardness 4.8 2.3 gpg
Copper 0 0 ppm
Iron 5 0 ppm
Manganese No** No**

* I'm not sure I would rely on the 6.5 and 6.7 phenol red pH readings from the wet chemistry analysis, an electronic red-ox (ORP) (Oxidation Reduction Potential) meter gets 6.9 for both, repeatable after using the reference solution to clean the probes to and recalibrate, the meter reads 7.0 for a distilled water sample.

** Not sure if "No" meant it wasn't tested or was too low to report. An Iron to Manganese ratio between 10:1 and 20:1 is typical in this area.

 

[polychromeuganda]

I should have added that the water analysis 3 years ago was before/after a 33 year old softener with single 1 cu ft. tank run by an autotrol 155 valve shortly after regenerating. The resin bed depleted increasingly rapidly and the resin bed treatments ceased to be effective, prompting the softener replacement 3 years ago.

 

[Reach4]

No sediment cartridge, its not needed, there's no sediment.

One advantage of a cartridge filter is it can detect as well as remove.

the meter reads 7.0 for a distilled water sample.

Distilled water is acidic because it absorbs CO2.

 

[polychromeuganda]

One advantage of a cartridge filter is detect as well as remove.

Distilled water is acidic because it absorbs CO2.

I hate to encourage trolls, but I need to hear from anyone who's dealt with a similar valve problem, so...

A cartridge does trap sediment, and if you buy a replaceable element type you get to see what it traps. I've filled a swimming pool quite a few times and seen literally nothing settle to the bottom. (its indoors with an electric cover) I've seen no sediment in toilet closets that are now 38 years old. I ran the same refrigerator / icemaker cartridge filter for over 3 years and cut it open. ... nothing other than iron was trapped inside (previous softener). If there were a rational basis for plumbing one in I'd have done it 25 or 30 years ago.

You misunderstood something along the way...
1) Distilled water isn't the calibration reference for an ORP meter, its just a convenient double-check.
2) Two things identify water of high purity. the pH is 7.0 and its an excellent electrical insulator.
3) If you dissolve CO2 in H2O the resulting solution is carbolic acid (of whatever concentration you achieved), not distilled water. Its also called Club Soda. You've probably noticed that the CO2 won't stay dissolved, it outgasses until it reaches the atmospheric concentration somewhere around 300ppm.
4) The atmospheric concentration of CO2 of around 300 ppm, isn't enough to change the pH of standing water. Acid rain isn't caused by CO2. It results from water falling through SO2, forming H2SO3 which picks up atmospheric O2 to become H2SO4, sulfuric acid.
5) One of the differences between distilled water and deionized water is that its held close to its boiling point before its boiled which drives out dissolved gasses.
6) AFAIK all the gasses found in Earth's atmosphere will dissolve in cold water. N2, O2, Ar, CO2, CH4, NH4, He, Ra, ... even Freon 12. Of these He is the one that passes readily enough through the typical polyethylene gallon jug to be of any interest. There is very very little of it in the atmosphere, and it remains inert when dissolved in water, so its not a concern either.

 

[ditttohead]

The Autotrol valve is a flapper design which is completely different from a seal/space/piston design. The Autotrol will typically handle very poor water conditions such as yours better than a Fleck or a Clack valve design. In good water, the Fleck or Clack is preferred. The Autotrol design is limited and has several problems, but the flappers can handle massive amounts of dirt, sand, iron etc.

The 9100 Plastic valve is the same plastic as the Autotrol and the Clack. Glass filler Noryl (or very similar composition...)
With 5 ppm of iron, a properly designed iron reduction system ahead of the softener would be ideal. The massive inefficiency of using a softener for this application is strongly discouraged. Modern water treatment methods are readily available to treat iron so the softener can be used efficiently.

What are the water results before water treatment?

Your pH range of "distilled water"... see below for actual potential ranges based on water quality.

18 MEG

0.056
μS/cm

.028
≈TDS ± 15%(ppm)


Max/Min pH

7.8/6.2



14 MEG

0.071
μS/cm

.036
≈TDS ± 15%(ppm)


Max/Min pH

7.9/6.1



10 MEG

0.1
μS/cm

.05
≈TDS ± 15%(ppm)


Max/Min pH

8.1/5.9



6 MEG

.167
μS/cm

.083
≈TDS ± 15%(ppm)


Max/Min pH

8.3/5.7



2 MEG

0.5
μS/cm

.25
≈TDS ± 15%(ppm)


Max/Min pH

8.8/5.2



1 MEG

1
μS/cm

.50
≈TDS ± 15%(ppm)


Max/Min pH

9.1/4.9



500K

2
μS/cm

1
≈TDS ± 15%(ppm)


Max/Min pH

9.4/4.6



200K

5
μS/cm

2.5
≈TDS ± 15%(ppm)


Max/Min pH

9.8/4.2

 

[polychromeuganda]

The untreated water was in the 1st column, and the iron level was a typo.

Untreated Well Water
TDS 45
pH 6.5*
Total Alkalinity 29 ppm
Total Chlorine 0.0 ppm
Total Hardness 82 ppm
Total Hardness 4.8 gpg
Copper 0 ppm
Iron 0.5 ppm (mg/l)

re: "Massive inefficiency"... Can't tell if you mean the cost of water, supplies, or equipment. Not clear there's any payback for adding a dedicated iron filter. Water softener salt is usually mentioned in state agency reports as a groundwater pollution issue. (It always seems a little disingenuous given the total state and municipal use of road salt is like 1000 lbs/person in this state. For my household, annual softener salt use is around 480lbs which is 15ppm of annual rainfall by weight.

Thank you for mentioning Noryl. After looking it up I'm glad I used vinegar instead of one of the iron-out products. Noryl has poor resistance to all sulfites and sulfates and isn't recommended for use with them (or sulfuric acid). Noryl has excellent resistance to 20% acetic acid (vinegar is 5-20% acetic acid).

If the Autotrol is a more reliable valve for water like mine then I suppose the answer could be the goofy looking Autotrol two valve cooperative alternating twin tank scheme. It looks like a kludge, and I wish they had more integrated twin tank valve, but if flappers work better than the piston valves then I'm all for flapper valves. Is the advantage that through the pilot assembly water pressure both actuates the valve and increases the force on the seal closure, while the slide valves only use the pilot path around the piston to actuate the valve by sliding the seal stack, and the seal closure develops its pressure from the fit of the seal in the bore?

I get the sense I accidentally touched on some distilled vs. deionized hot button I didn't intend to. Those pH numbers look like the conductivity is solely due to H+ and OH- ions, independently from any effect from however the pH was achieved. That would mean those would be limits beyond which its absolutely certain that lab data is flawed, rather than data you would expect to get from a sample, or did I miss something? I remember that absolutely pure H2O spontaneously falls apart into a matched set of H+ and OH- ions and recombines into H2O at a rate that leaves 100ppb (10^-7) each of H+ and OH- at 20°C. I remember to get pH+ or pOH- other than 7 something has to be added to H2O to snag one of those ions and keep it busy leaving the other one free. I remember that the recombination rate forces the sum of pH and pOH to be 14 no matter what is added until so much is added it isn't mostly water. I'm pretty sure none of that helps me find a way to make this valve operate more reliably or a different water softener valve that works better than this one.

 

[Reach4]

Noryl has poor resistance to all sulfites and sulfates

Could you say where you found that information? I was unable to do so. The places I found had positive info on Noryl vs sulfites and sulfates, but I only read through a couple.

 

[polychromeuganda]

my bad... I'm pretty sure I was using this one
http://www.quickcutgasket.com/pdf/Chemical-Resistance-Chart.pdf

Re-checking I'm pretty sure I lost my column scrolling down and I was looking at Nylon. Cross checking with a couple other sites confirmed Noryl should be good with the sulfates/sulfites and sulfuric acid.

http://www.sdplastics.com/ensinger/chemres.pdf
and
http://labs.mcb.harvard.edu/Gaudet/Resources_Files/Beckman/ChemRes.pdf

which seem to be working from at least slightly different data bases. What should be the authority on Noryl, Sabic IP (The Saudi Kingdom bought GE plastics and the Noryl name) makes you register and then has peculiar conflicting data using brand name products. For example on line has Rectorseal No 5 as good with 85% elongation retention, and another line as problematic with 71% elongation retention. I didn't locate really relevant data on Sabic.

 

[Reach4]

Getting back to the symptom, is that that your brine tank is full to the safety float level, and you don't draw brine?

I expect you have gone through these steps, but you could revisit the item from the manual that you have already checked:
Softener fails to draw brine.

Drain line flow control is plugged. Clean drain line flow control.
Injector is plugged. Clean injector
Injector screen plugged. Clean screen.
Line pressure is too low. Increase line pressure to 20 psi
Internal control leak Change seals, spacers, and piston assembly.
Service adapter did not cycle. Check drive motor and switches.
​

Another possibility is there is a small leak in the brine line that admits air breaking the suction. Can you suck brine with your Mityvac or mouth, if you pull the brine line? I don't know if a safety float can block drawing brine or not.

I doubt that Super Iron Out makes H2SO4. The vapors to me are a different smell from H2SO4 and are not as acrid. I don't think it is a matter of dilution. The Super Iron Out has a pretty distinctive smell, and it is not an H2S or a rotting smell. SIO is nice in a toilet tank that has some iron deposits. Let it sit overnight, and it has a good cleaning effect.

 

[ditttohead]

Massive inefficiency is a math equation.

Compensated hardness for iron is typically calculated at 1 ppm=85 ppm of hardness. This is obviously very inefficient compared to removing the iron through methods other than salt. Ground water pollution is a concern and the cumulative affects need to be considered and varies greatly by region. In areas where water is reused (waste treatment plants) the tds load needs to be minimized so the next city gets acceptable quality water.

As to the Autotrol being "better", add a simple sediment filter and the piston type system is typically preferred. Flapper designs require considerably more space thus the very large valve to achieve similar flow rates and functions, and the number of internal moving components is greatly increased as is the mechanical complexity of the valve. Also the bypass, plumbing connections, electronic controller, and the basic mechanical function of the valve is not as advanced as modern Fleck and Clack valves. Pentair owns both Fleck and Autotrol. The Fleck product line has been continually advanced over the years adding unique features, simpler mechanical functions, fewer moving parts, gears etc. They did use the optical sensor from Autotrol on their new line, other than that Autotrol has been fairly stagnant.


As to the pH issue, no need to make it more complex than it is and it is the farthest thing from a "hot button" issue. I just try to share important information that is derived from being a USP27 system designer. The pH theory that pure water is 7.0... I am sure we can go into this during one of my training seminars but... in the real world, distilled or DI water is rarely 7.0. Just like trying to test the resistivity of water. In a sealed pressurized line right after a multiple pass properly designed and engineered Ultra Pure water system I can get 18+ meg water, as soon as you take the water out of this perfect environment ie: expose it to atmosphere, all bets are off the table as to what the pH, resistivity TOC counts etc will be as they will change rapidly and wildly.

 

[polychromeuganda]

Reach4- Yes, the brine tank has lots of water, and there's no brine draw. All of those steps, except the seals, were tried the first time around, there was nothing plugged or clogged and it was all cleaned etc to no effect more than once which was frustrating at the time. Changing the seals and spacers and cleaning the valve body and piston was immediately effective. I did take a quick look into the injector this time and saw nothing and closed it up. I have more seals on order at this time, but I'm pretty sure I've just thrown good money after bad. There may be something wrong about the valve body, but I don't have another one to compare it to and I have seen any borescope images or dimensions on-line to compare it to.

The main ingredients in super iron-out ingredients are quite clearly sodium hydrosulfite (aka sodium dithionite, Na2S2O4) and sodium metabisulfite (aka sodium pyrosulfite, Na2S2O4). The minor ingredients on the MSDS are calcium carbonate CaCO3, citric acid C6H8O7, sodium sulfite Na2SO3 and sodium bisulfite NaHSO3.

Sodium hydrosulfite plus water and air is Na2S2O4 + O2 + H2O → NaHSO4 + NaHSO3, both of these are acids

Sodium metabisulfite plus water releases sulfur dioxide (SO2) SO2+H2O yeilds H2SO3 which will scavenge oxygen to change oxidation states to make H2SO4. Apparently no one has ever managed to prepare a sample of H2SO3, there's some question as to whether it ever exists as such.

SIO seems to be aimed at doing what sulfuric acid does, which is to reduce insoluble iron and iron oxides to soluble iron sulfate. I'm not sure what causes the odor you were expecting, or why SIO doesn't cause it but it doesn't sound like anyone would want it anyway.

 

[polychromeuganda]

dittohead - I'm not going to try a sediment pre-filter, first because no water test or anything else in the use history has ever suggested a need for one, and second because the equipment would be either a big wet mess to disassemble to replace a disposable filter core that had to be sourced periodically, which isn't a vast improvement from disassembling and cleaning a valve, or something that has a valve very similar to a softener to backwash itself frequently, which would itself need a valve that can perform before the sediment filter and become the point of failure.
I have no problem understanding that a water softener sales and service company would find a disposable element filter a desirable component. Most consumers won't service it themselves or source the elements in bulk so it creates a steady revenue stream for the company.

 

[Reach4]

I have no problem understanding that a water softener sales and service company would find a disposable element filter a desirable component. Most consumers won't service it themselves or source the elements in bulk so it creates a steady revenue stream for the company.

Clearly we are in different worlds.

If there is little to catch, you can go a year on an element. I go longer.

 

[ditttohead]

And if there is nothing in the water then a piston valve would be desirable over a flapper. Again, we sell both and we don't care what our customers buy so long as they pay their bills.

 

[Water Addict]

If i understand you correctly your system has worked fine until year 3.5 where you had a brine draw failure. You soaked pistons and seals in vinegar, reassembled and had success until failure#2. You are now questioning the Fleck 9000Sxt and are considering alternatives or other preventive measures?

How much water do you use? Approximately? If you are filling your pool periodically and having additional use beyond that, your 3.5 years could be more like 5-10 years of "normal wear and tear". It would be worth your time to try a new set of seals rather than cleaning them again. Your cleaned seals could have imperfections not visible by the naked eye. I know you feel they are good. I am only recommending this based on hundreds of 9000 service I've experienced on iron ranging from 0 - 20ppm. I have a policy, don't reuse seals unless the customer has a hardship. If customer has hardship, don't reuse seals. My gut instinct says you use a decent amount of water and 3.5 years might be an expected seal life. If this is the case, things could be worse.

Can you identify what function of the seals the buildup is taking place on? The backwash, brine/rinse or fast rinse? For example, if the buildup is on the brine/rinse, maybe a brine additive like resup, citric acid, rust out would help dissolve the iron so it doesn't build on seals.

I love the clack valve, it's easier to work on, much more user friendly but I believe you will experience the problem with iron build up. Unfortunately, the clack can be more sensitive to iron buildup and tolerances and if you are already having that problem, I would skip it. It seems some good options have been touched on. It is true the Autotrol is more resistant with doors/flappers that close rather than piston and seal. What kind of success did you have with the autotrol in the past? Another option mentioned is an iron filter. The ROI would mainly be in your time and money saved replacing your seals and salt use which is dependent on how much water you use. You also have to consider with your water profile, you will likely have to feed an oxidizer which will increase your operation cost (chemical, pump tubes, injection/check points).

A pre-filter is never a bad idea. Water that looks clear and debris free could actually be turbid, silt, manganese, iron which could be polished off prior to your softener. This is not only good for protecting seals, but the resin bed as well. Even if it is cleaner than DI water now, eventually the casing will scale or some debris will be pumped. They are a critical component for any good water treatment design but often overlooked as an optional item. I will have to upload a photo of the pre-filter in my home with 0.5ppm iron. It's NASTY in 6 months. Runs me $10 bucks to change every 6 months. I'm not trying to sell you on one, just don't want you to miss out on good information because you may think they are too expensive to run.

You obviously are a bright guy, i'm impressed by your findings. Us water treatment guys tend to overbuild.... and out perform everyone who doesn't

 

[Bannerman]

You soaked pistons and seals in vinegar, reassembled and had success until failure#2.

Water Addict: The opening post clearly states he replaced the seals & spacers but cleaned the pistons and valve internals with vinegar. Success for 60 days only as the same issue re-occurred.

 

[polychromeuganda]

Thank you to all the forum members for your many insights and suggestions.

Yesterday UPS delivered another set of seals and spacers and a tube of genuine DOW Molykote 111. I'll try simple maintenance one more time on the off chance I nicked one or more seals on insertion, and the greater likelihood something left in the valve bore nucleated crud deposition causing the rapid return to dysfunction. I''ll re-clean the valve body with vinegar and this time also use a 3M plastic polish (used as the final step on clear polycarbonate windscreens) with a soft cloth to smooth the surface and remove any particles luking in the pores that might be attracting deposits. I'll also use Genuine DOW Molykote 111 instead of a generic packet of repackaged silicone in order to be absolutely sure of the lubricant. (the data sheet proclaims Dow 111 is suitable for lubricating water softener seals.) I'll slide the sealstack into place from a polished metal rod of whatever the piston diameter is using probably less attractive and merely adequately well fitted PVC plunger. I haven't made the tool yet, and this its day or two in the future, right now my spare time is occupied with a vaguely similar activity changing many oil seals in the engine and drivetrain of an old AWD car I gave to my son. (... its like that 7/70 factory warranty, but being dad doesn't have a time limit, so ...)

I expect the 9100 valve will behave well in the short term. If I haven't added a message to this thread, then it continues to operate correctly and there's nothing to tell. If the previous pattern holds then I'll be putting a message here in April 2017.

 

[ditttohead]

IMHO... we don't recommend DOW 111 anymore. Dow release compound 7 or equivalent is what we recommend. 111 used to be our go to but we have had some unusual issues in the past. Not sure why but... Fleck released a bulletin in 2006, bulletin 529 addressing the lubricant issue. We also have been using Chemplex 862 for many years with great success.

We highly recommend replacing the piston at the same time you replace the seals/spacers. Newer valves only come as a complete kit (seal/spacer stack and piston assembly) to prevent people from doing this.

As to installing the seals, a tool may be helpful but is certainly not needed for the 9100. Be sure the deals seat fully on the lands before installing the next spacer. Also be very careful to install the seals and spacers(2 different sizes) in the correct order as shown in the manual.