Fleck 8500 control performs intermittently

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by kengmiller, Apr 13, 2010.

  1. kengmiller

    kengmiller New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    I have a TwinFlo 100e dual tank system that uses a Fleck 8500 head. It is installed on a commercial ice making/vending machine. It peformed flawlessly for two years. Then we had a continuously running flow through the discharge hose.

    I got some advice to replace the seal kit. A friend and I took apart the unit, replaced the seal kit, and reassembled. That solved the leak, but after that, the unit did draw from the brine tank during its brine rise, nor did it refill the tank on its own on the few occasions it did draw. I checked out many things like injectors, screens, etc., without success. Finally, we determined that we had left a part out when we reassembed - the transfer link. We added that part - with great difficulty to get things aligned and reassembed. Same problem.

    We determined a couple of things. First, when we replaced the seal kit, we did not stop the unit it its proper cycle (Tank 2, cycle 3 brine rinse) to make the removal easier. So, we probably forced some things. Second, the Cam assembly now had a broken tooth.

    I ordered a part and replaced the Cam assembly. Everything went back together well, but the unit still is not performing correctly.

    One concern that I have is that if I somehow installed the gears "out of cycle" (in the incorrect cycle position), will it ever work? Can it self correct, or will it never work correctly? How can I tell that everything is in the correct position when I reinstall?

    I have observed the unit work, and when it should be in the brine rinse cycle, the tapered part of the cam assembly is not in the correct position to depress the brine piston. As a result of this, I am pretty sure the problem is in the control head and not the injectors.

    I would appreciate any insight or guidance that anyone can provide.
  2. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,493
    Location:
    Alaska
    You need to assemble that control face the right way , there is no other way..

    Right now I am cleaning up another 8500 that was leaking at the main end plug... and when the body has been rebuilt the control face will go back on , but the pistons have to be in home or service and the control face has to be in service and not a cycle.
  3. kengmiller

    kengmiller New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Nashville, TN
  4. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,493
    Location:
    Alaska
    Yes the unit should be in the service spots when putting the unit all back together.

    I will work on some photos, but that is going to be in the next few days, I just brought it in and it is loaded with Iron and is in need of a day or so of soaking ....

    Now 4 hours later the valve is all the way apart, any space in the valve and cage assembly was filled with Iron...

    I will be taking some photos of the unit as I am putting it back together later today/tonight....
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2010
  5. kengmiller

    kengmiller New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    It's time for a pro

    100_0781..jpg 100_0780..jpg



    This all started to resolve a leak/seal kit issue on a TwinFlo 100e last year. It uses the Fleck 8500 head.

    The seal kit resolved the leak, but we never got the unit cleaning itself correctly, undoubtedly due to various assembly errors. I have the head off now, and am looking for a resource to ship it to so that it can be evaluated, tested, and repaired if necessary. Pictures are attached.

    Here is a bit of history. When we changed the water seal, we failed (did not know) to cycle the unit to the proper cycle (Tank 2, step 3 brine rinse) before disassembling. That made it difficult to get the head off and on, and we may have damaged something at that time.

    One thing we know we did is WE LEFT OUT THE TRANSFER LINK. It ran for months without a transfer link, and only cleaned the tank (with a brine draw) occasionally. Mostly no brine draw or brine tank refill.

    We tested many injectors and screens,etc. but were never able to resolve it. Within the last couple of months, we realized we left the transfer link out, added that back in, but still had intermittenet performance.

    Then we noticed a broken tooth on the Cam assembly, replaced it, still no progress.

    Whenever the cam assembly rotates such that the tapered side depresses the brine piston, we get a brine draw, but that mostly never happens. Sometimes just by luck?, but not on subsequent cycles.

    My conclusion is that the gears and the electronic control are "out of cycle", and the unit is constantly confused. I had hoped that it would self-correct, but that has not occurred. Tonight, I accidently broke off the alignment pin on the center plate, making it even more difficult to attempt trial and error approaches to getting things aligned. Also, one of the plastic clips used to hold the motor clamp is broken, so that hangs precariously as well.

    Pictures are attached below.

    I'd like to ship the unit to someone who can evaluate it, replace the broken parts, test it on another system, and send it back to me positioned ready to go on to my system.

    Can someone refer me to a resource that can do this? I am located in Tennessee, but will ship wherever if necessary. Thanks in advance for your help.
  6. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,493
    Location:
    Alaska
    check you message box.. :)
  7. sarrowsm

    sarrowsm F5Scott

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Brighton, MI
    Fleck 8500

    I have a Fleck 8500 Control Valve. What is the correct orientation of the cage and rotor assembly during into the body during installation? The direction or clocking of the ports on the parts in relation to the body or bores. Thank you.
  8. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,493
    Location:
    Alaska
    Another 8500....... arg.....
    The cage has the longer part on the bottom when it goes in and the two extra parts that might fall off when the cage is not in place go on the bottom.
    The piston has three openings at the front, the largest of the three is at the bottom for the little shaft to set into ..

    Which control is on the front of this? the SE or the older clock?
  9. sarrowsm

    sarrowsm F5Scott

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Brighton, MI
    I beleive its the older timer (Timer Assembly Fleck 9000 120 volt 1/30 rpm - 60376-XX Fleck 9000 / 9100 / 9500 Econominder Timer Assembly) set up with pins with no electronic display, unlike the timer shown above Kengmiller's post.

    So the cage should have the longer part on the bottom and the two extra parts (molded inlet and outlet) go on the bottom. Should two extra parts be placed at the bottom of the bore or 6:00 position? Looking at the original rotor or piston on the front face it has three openings - one a square cut and two have a 45 degree angle cut. Also the orginal piston has two large (round and oval) ports how should they be clocked in the bore?

    Thank you.
  10. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,493
    Location:
    Alaska
    It is not really the opening of the pistion that are getting lined up while putting it back together, thou they should be close to the bottom, it is the cuts at the front that you have to line up. The cuts in the face of the shaft will take the shaft that then goes and hooks on the crank transfer and that transfer should be at the 6 so that it can take the link that .....

    on a side note... this is just one of the reasons that the 8500 or twin flow is getting retired and is no longer getting made.. a real pain..
  11. sarrowsm

    sarrowsm F5Scott

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Brighton, MI
    Fleck 8500

    So for both the cage and the rotor the openings should be clocked to 6:00 area. The photo I attached shows the areas that I'm referencing. The original cage came out in multiple pieces adding to my confusion. Thank you.

    Attached Files:

  12. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,493
    Location:
    Alaska
    The two doors or parts that came off the cage can only go back on one way, there is no other way for them to go on, then when the cage goes back in , another it can only go in one way, that little extra that it has needs to go on the bottom to be able to go into the open space in the bottom at the back of the opening when the cage goes back in.
    The rotor will have the openings on the bottom half.. it is what channels the water from coming in and go to either tank 1 or tank 2 depending on which side they are open to on the bottom half of a circle if you where looking at it from the front.
    Here is a link to the owners manual, the one that you have must be a culligan lable.. as they did not like to hand out the manuals with any parts break down.
    http://www.pentairwatertreatment.co...t/Manuals/TwinFloSXT Service Manual 42774.pdf
  13. sarrowsm

    sarrowsm F5Scott

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Brighton, MI
    I have a US Filter softener model 7500 that I purchased in 1998. I do have a manual but it's not as detailed as the link that you sent. Thank you for all the help!
  14. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,493
    Location:
    Alaska
    Can not say that I have heard of the model 7500.... but stranger things have been known to happen in the land of the non mid night sun..

    As you are putting things back together take care not to break any of the plastic parts or links or round out any part that is not round already.

    Any other questions just post them.
  15. sarrowsm

    sarrowsm F5Scott

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Brighton, MI
    Fleck 8500 Fails to Draw Brine

    After replacing the seals in my Fleck 8500 Control Valve Assy it fails to draw brine. Please note I cleaned out the brine tank, safety valve, and lines. Maybe my control valve needs to be scrapped. Any suggestions?
  16. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,493
    Location:
    Alaska
    Is there any point while it is moving from one part of the cycle to the next that it draws brine?
    Have you checked the injector and screen to make sure that they are clean and in one piece?
  17. sarrowsm

    sarrowsm F5Scott

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Brighton, MI
    Fleck 8500 Fails to Draw Brine

    First question - I may have to observe again.

    Second question - I did check both they are clean and in decent shape. The injector bore is discolored compared to other bores.
  18. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,493
    Location:
    Alaska
    Discolored should not be a challenge in pulling brine from the brine tank.

    I know that I was having a challenge with an 8500 pulling brine that had the SE control, changed it to the older style and it would pull the brine.
    The SE cam was not stopping where it needed to be to pull the brine and no matter how I changed the microswitches it would not work so I changed to the non SE and it worked great.
  19. sarrowsm

    sarrowsm F5Scott

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Brighton, MI
    Fleck 8500

    Please see attachment for diagram of my control.

    Attached Files:

  20. sarrowsm

    sarrowsm F5Scott

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Brighton, MI
    Fleck 8500

    Please see attachment for diagram of my control

    Attached Files:

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