Fleck 7000 intermittent low water pressure

[artx]

Hi - new posting to the forum but I've found a lot of helpful info here before. I could use some assistance on my water softener - has a Fleck 7000 valve. 10 years old. 80psi street water pressure.

The problem is intermittent low water pressure when performing high draw tasks- filling tub, shower, washing machine. Pressure on the softener output drops to <20psi and water slows to a trickle. If you turn all water consumption in the house off and wait a while, it resets to normal pressure. I've verified the street pressure stays at 80psi during these modes, and that bypassing the softener fixes the issue immediately. I also make sure the brine valve is set to service correctly when this happens. I've tried performing regenerations with no change.

Following one of the Fleck 7000 rebuild videos posted on this site, I took apart the valve today hoping to find something obviously broken. The injector either broke on extraction or was already broken into two peices. Other than that it looked ok. I took out the turbine as well. Looked ok.

I used to have a pressure reduction valve ahead of the softener that reduced the pressure to 60psi. I pulled it out thinking it was the culprit with no changes. Valve was necessary before the city replaced my meter with a meter containing a pressure reduction valve.

I'm on standard city water.

Any suggestions? Would a rebuild be likely to fix this kind of problem? I don't want to spend the $ on a rebuild without a decent chance of success. Appreciate any help.

 

[Bannerman]

The issue may not be the valve but more likely, the resin.

As your water is obtained from the city, it will be chlorinated. Resin under constant chlorine exposure will eventually become compromised, causing the resin to swell and become mushy and packing tightly. The mushy packed resin will impede water flow through the resin bed, resulting in the pressure and flow problems you describe. Rebedding the softener will then be necessary.

We experienced similar in that our normally strong shower became barely adequate whereas opening any other faucet in the house resulted in the shower becoming a trickle. Full flow and pressure was restored when the softener was bypassed. Rebedding our softener solved our issue.

While 10% crosslink resin is more durable than the standard 8% (or lower) against chlorine, 10% is more costly. One alternative option would be to install a back washing whole house carbon filter to remove the chlorine before the softener, while also removing or reducing many other contaminants which maybe present. Since you obtained 10 years service from the standard resin, a further alternative would be to again use standard resin, anticipating that in a further 10 years or so, the resin will likely need to be replaced again.

As chlorine can also eventually degrade the seals within the valve, you may wish to also rebuild the valve as preventative maintenance.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Mikey]

As chlorine can also eventually degrade the seals within the valve, you may wish to also rebuild the valve as preventative maintenance.

That never occured to me. That means my backwashing carbon filter valve will more likely need to be rebuilt before my softener (?), so it will give me a heads-up for rebuilding the softener. I'll have 15 years on the carbon valve (a 2510) in February -- should I rush to get a rebuild kit handy?

 

[Bannerman]

Your chlorine concentration maybe quite different than 'artx' so it would be difficult to predict when your filter valve will require rebuilding.

If 'artx's' resin was compromised after 10 years of chlorine exposure, then the soft valve components were also exposed to that same concentration of chlorine. As it appears that his control valve is not presenting any issues currently, rebuilding it at the same time the resin is replaced may only be precautionary.

My softener's resin required replacement after 17 years exposure to chlorinated municipal well water. As I had experienced issues with the valve sticking over a year prior, I rebuilt the valve when the resin was replaced. When first experiencing the sticking issues, to temporarily restore operation until parts could be obtained, I had re-lubricated the seals and piston with silicon plumbing lubricant which in my case, was so effective, I didn't rush the rebuild. Upon inspection, degradation of the seals was clearly visible as was loss of Teflon coating from areas on the piston.

 

[artx]

Thanks Bannerman- so if I understand right, the resin can temporarily swell and then contract later? Maybe 50% of the time I can get normal water pressure through the in service softener. I saw a lot about swelled resin when searching, but it seemed like most who had that issue had a constant drop of pressure when the softener is in service (vs intermittent like I have). Thanks!

 

[Bannerman]

Once resin has been damaged, it will need to be replaced as it isn't a temporary condition. Even if the swelling/mushiness could contract once the cause of the damage is eliminated, your water supply continues to always contain chlorine so the aggravating factor is always present.

You may want to view your city's water report to determine the amount of residual chlorine is typically present throughout the distribution system. Municipal water reports are often posted on-line.

As you mention the pressure drop being an inconsistent situation, perhaps you could describe when you recognize the pressure and flow rate being higher versus lower:
- higher flow directly after regeneration and then decreasing over time?
- flow gradually increasing when nearing regeneration?
- drastically lower flow (more than usual) only when more than one water consuming activity is occurring at the same time?
- flow reduction maybe more apparent on the upper levels vs ground floor or basement particularly when water is consumed concurrently at multiple locations?
- flow decrease more noticeable at certain fixtures vs others?
- Does the water continue to be soft while the flow is low or high?
- any other situations you might recognize?

A few ideas to consider:
- As the backwash program during the regeneration cycle causes the resin to be loosened and redistributed (reclassified) within the resin tank, perhaps the freshly loosened resin is permitting increased flow temporarily until the resin more thoroughly settles and is compacted again.

- Water will always take the path of least resistance so an ongoing restricted flow condition may result in a path(s) being carved through the compacted resin thereby providing less flow restriction, but also reduced resin contact for softening to take place. Upon regeneration, those paths will be eliminated whereby the flow will be again more noticeably restricted.

With my prior reduced flow situation, when only one water consuming appliance or fixture was in operation, water pressure appeared to be relatively normal throughout the house. While showering using a low flow shower head on the upper level, any other fixture/appliance also consuming water caused the shower flow to suddenly drop to a trickle as almost all flow and pressure was being diverted to the less restrictive fixture, particularly those located on the lower levels.

Your initial description other than the fluctuating condition, seems to describe a resin issue. To eliminate the valve as the cause, you may wish to proceed to dismantle the piston, seal and spacer section as your initial post isn't clear that you did already inspect those components. Those components all work together in controlling the water flow and direction through the softener.

As you mentioned the injector, that is utilized during the slow rinse and brine programs to control only their flow rates. While the turbine could restrict some outlet flow if it were jammed, if it easily spins, it is not likely the source of the issue.

 

[artx]

Hi Bannerman,

Thanks for the detailed reply. Chlorine looks to be 1.13ppm per our municipal water report - http://www.saws.org/Your_Water/WaterQuality/Report/docs/2014_SanAntonioWaterSystemTX0150018.pdf

I did disassemble the piston, seal and spacer. I didn't see anything obviously wrong, no severely degraded plastic etc. I attached a picture - you might see some white dots on a few of the seals, that was crud from the bucket it went into. It was clean when removed.

The low pressure occurs only if tub/shower or washing machine are in use. With only one of those in use, and no other water draws in house, sometimes - maybe 50% of the time- the pressure drops. Opening a faucet or flushing toilet will result in even less pressure out of both the tub/shower or washing machine and the faucet. a common time is a shower late at night or early in morning. I walked around to make sure nothing else was on, and checked pressure at an outside faucet. The shower flow would be a trickle. If you turn the shower off and right back on, still a trickle. If you turn the shower off, wait maybe 10 minutes, good chance pressure is restored. This happens at 2 different bathrooms and washer.

One story house from mid 1990s. Cold and hot water are affected. I have left the shower on, went to garage where water softener is and left the door open so I could hear the shower pressure. Bypassing the softener provides an immediate fix and drastic increase in pressure.

I am unsure if the water is hard vs soft when this occurs. I think one chart said our water had 21grains per gallon hardness. I'm not the best at telling hard vs soft at our house...which as I've learned more about water softeners makes me wonder how well or not it was working. It definitely did work some, as with the softener bypassed I'm battling white dusty film in the dishwasher constantly which didn't happen before.

Backwash and renegeration seem to have no affect. Frequency doesn't change; no ramp up or ramp down. It can happen next day after regeneration. Several days after regeneration still the same issues.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Reach4]

During the rebuild, did you set the S exactly opposite the arrow on the top under the cover (with a 3/8 socket) as described starting at 7:11 on Ditttohead's video?

I have never done a rebuild, but I wonder what behavior a slight misalignment might cause. The problem is probably the deteriorated resin, but what if that cycle cam was off?

 

[artx]

hi Reach4,

I have not yet performed the rebuild. The cost of components is pretty high so I'm trying to ensure the rebuild has a good chance of success before I under take it. I did watch the video (excellent video!) and made sure the S was lined up. Thanks!

 

[Mikey]

Just a technical nit: You're not losing pressure, you're losing volume.

 

[ditttohead]

LOL, thanks for that, volume/pressure are two totally different calculations.

Your Chlorine from the city can vary from .5-4 ppm. The average is just that, but is not going to tell you what you have. Chlorine gets consumed quickly in a municipal application so those closest to the chlorine injection point will have the highest level, those at the end of the run will have the lowest.

Time to replace your resin.