Fleck 7000 1.5 cu ft 48K, water still hard, stumped at this

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Gwarrior99

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Hi,
I've read many posts, softener was installed 3 years ago by a plumber, it looks to be installed correctly.
1 1/2 cu ft of resin, 8% cross link resin
Fleck 7000 Sxt 48k
City says 18 Gpg, 320 ppm, my Hach 5b test i just did has me at 25 Gpg, why the 7 differential? is that from pipes to the house, etc? I'VE been operating with 18 Gpg
No iron, city water

3 people, have capacity set at 28K, after testing for hardness going to set capacity to 36K
I'm not as concerned about efficiency at the moment, I will be, but I'm simply attempting to achieve soft water


SF 15
DO 8
RT 2:00 am
B1 10
BD 50
B2 5
RR 8
BF 30


I have plenty of salt in the tank for now, and the brine fill and draw when I watch it is drawing and filling
It fills up to the same level where I manually added 5 gallons initially when I cleaned the brine tank and added salt/ water
I ran two regenerations last night w the above settings to regenerate the resin, but testing the water this morning and still hard....
The valve cycles thru properly when I watch it, I sat thru a whole regen and saw the tank empty during draw/ come back during BF

I don't think tweaking the brine draw and fill times will help but I'm desperate for any input
Im aware re capacity and usage
I'd like feedback on settings, this Hach test threw me, I didn't expect a 7 Gpg difference from the city statement

Is too much brine an issue during brine draw?

I don't think it's ever been working to soften water highly, so assumed the resin needed help, but running two cycles overnight didn't seem to work( yes I spaced them 4 hrs apart)


Any and all help is appreciated, many thanks
Greg

Could the resin be unable to regen?
 
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Reach4

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Since the Hach 5B uses 1 drop of reagent per grain, it is pretty tedious to measure 25 GPG. What does the test say about your softened water the day after regeneration and the day before regeneration?

Regarding the differential between your measurements and the city's published number, I would try talking to the water department. The hardness number could vary as they vary the mix from their various wells. In their test numbers, did they give a range of many tests, or just a single number?

What does the city report say about iron and manganese?

Is it possible your manual bypass valves are not set correctly? For example, if the installation in this picture had the middle valve open some, unsoftened water would bypass the softener.
 
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Gwarrior99

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Thanks, embarrassed to say I tested using only strips prior and didn't test before after just once or twice. I fell behind on salt so used the opp to clean the brine tank and start fresh, w 5 gallons of water and 3 bags of salt. I hadn't tested it in a long time until yesterday/ today. Bypass looks good, checked that prior. I find it very odd that after two regenerations hardness would be that high, higher then the city statement( City states 18 gpg only one value for the town, I will call them also Bc of the difference in my testing). City report has no iron or manganese listed.
I'll try one more double regen but now thinking its somewhere in the valve or something is clogged( not the brine tube thats working)But the valve works properly and cycles, I see water on the tank etc so doesn't seem to be an obvious issue
Thanks
 

Reach4

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You aren't saying that the Hach5B showed 25 grains after the softener, are you?
 

Gwarrior99

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Just checked the brine tube thru and all clear. If its the injector screen or dist cap etc, I don't want to disassemble the valve etc
Going to run a double regen tonight one more time, test today and tmrw, see what I get
May have to get someone to come out who works w fleck valves locally, my last plumber did not
If resin is hardn after a regen wouldnt the hardness level come down some?
Many thanks
 

Gary Slusser

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Are you testing raw water or softened water?

The 30 minutes of refill at say .25 gpm per minute says 7.5 gallons in 30 minutes, for 22.5 lbs of salt. That is going to regenerate 45K, which is the max for 1.5 cuft of regular mesh resins, not 48K. So if you are using 48K for your math, you are off by 3K and that will always increase the amount of not fully regenerated resin and to how much K is regenerated over time and allow hardness bleed through the softener. IOWs, you won't get 0 gpg soft water.

As to the water company, your test is best, they use old data in their annual reports or may be telling you what your part of the distribution system usually has but are now mixing various sources of water with higher hardness. The person you get on the phone may not know that. So use the 25 gpm which may be the highest hardness in their system.
 

Gwarrior99

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Something cant be right w the softener/ valve for water to test " softened " water that high. I ran it twice last night, and tested the kitchen sink today. I was baffled as i kept putting drops in during the hach test. 25?! I just started getting more involved with this all weekend, bc ive always felt the water was never being softened really, but 25 gpg, maybe thats build up on the pipes. Im shocked. I put it at 30 bf to max it out for the two regens, Thanks, I can reduce the BF from 30, I have capacity set at 36K now(3 people, 60 gal, 25 Gpg, 1.5 cu ft resin). I was using 18 Gpg until I tested it, using 25 for now. I'm having trouble determining the .gpm, I don't see a sticker or anything on the blfc, I took it off when I checked the brine tube, saw a 1 on it I believe but not clear.
What would be the best setting for BF for my situation? That would help me isolate issues. I saw a post where someone checked the dist cap, to me the valve seems difficult to disassemble, but if brine is flowing in, and it's cycling, I'm perplexed
I'm really starting to think its not just neglect and resin regen but something going on inside the valve or tank. Trouble shooting mentions the dist tube( I've heard of these cracking), internal valve leak, or injector screen plugged. All ther hard water " causes" have been accounted for. I tested cold water, hot water understand might be testing hard Bc of the tank
Thanks all, this forum gives me info or otherwise I'd be completely in the dark.
 

Reach4

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Are you sure the faucet that you are using to get test water is connected to the output of your softener?
 

Gwarrior99

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Yes, the only outlet before the softener is the outside hose. I'm going to test that and inside. It is very difficult to remove the H clip to get to the injector screen. I was able to do it on a old valve by really wrenching and banging on it. I don't want to do that here, if anyone has suggestions for removing the H clip to get the injector cap off etc let me know. The plumber who installed this had issues 3 years ago w setting it up but eventually it was set ok I though, he wasn't familiar w fleck, but the set up looks ok. Would a clogged injector screen give me such a high hardness reading?
Otherwise the problem is inside the valve or the tank. If I have to take the valve off I'm saving that as last resort
Thanks all, I'm all in on this one and appreciate any input as I am not a plumber or expert
 

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To take any control valve part off you need to shut off the water to the softener and open a faucet somewhere past the softener until the water stops flowing, then put the softener's by pass valve in By Pass, then remove the part, including "H" clips as you call them. That relieves the water pressure. You'll get a smallish amount of water out of the valve and plumbing when you open the valve anywhere but a bath towel sops it up easily. And if you wrap it around the tank under the valve you probably won't get the floor wet at all but....

The injector, injector screen or DLFC or BLFC has nothing to do with the cause of your problem IF you are testing after the softener.... Again you have not said if you are testing water after the softener or before it although is seems to be after the softener so...

You could have the softener installed backwards, meaning the inlet is connected to the control valve Outlet, and the outlet connected to the Inlet of the control valve. Plumbers that install Autotrol valves (inlet on the left and outlet on the right as you look at the control valve and over it) can get Fleck etc. backwards because all other control valves have the Inlet on the right and their Outlet on the left; which is industry standard. Or you could have a lost or broken distributor tube o-ring or a split in the dist. tube above the resin.
 

ditttohead

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It sounds like your system is using salt, so the next step is to see if the salt is going through the resin.

A common problem with the 7000 is that many dealers do not know how to use the 32mm x 1.05 adapter. The 32mm oring and retainer must be removed prior to installing the adapter. If this is not done, the adapter will slide down the manifold in time and cause problems that may not show up for a year or two. It is simple to test for.

Put the system into regeneration, once it goes into the brine/rinse cycle, taste the water at the drain, it should not be immediately salty, if it is, then you know you have a manifold/o-ring issue. The salt water being drawn from the brine tank will take several minutes to work its way through the resin bed and out the drain.

Do this quick test and let us know what you find.
 

Gwarrior99

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Thanks all, will come back w feedback. Txs Gary, wasnt thinking about water pressure...
Yes I'm testing water after the softener, inlet/ outlet is set up correctly also. I ran a regen overnight w new settings just because, and when I checked just now, there was some residual water in the brine tube, I saw tiny air bubbles in the tube which alerted me. I haven't seen this before. I did disengage and reconnect the tube yesterday so may have re connected totight or ? I just checked again now, the holes for brine are clear, amd the unit was using salt prior, so don't think this is an issue, it's not blocked either side, I took out the float etc and checked everything. The system is drawing and refilling, I watched it, so I'll watch it again tonight, were speaking to the brine draw(BD) cycle when tasting for salt correct? B1 is first w a straight drain of water from the softener correct? Thanks again
 

Gwarrior99

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Fixed the brine tube, too tight at the tank. Tasted salty water in just under a minute during BD, I have a long drain line, so looks like we're getting somewhere, o ring lost/ broken or need detail on manifold issue. In any case brine isn't hitting the resin it seems. I can bypass the softener, the plumber set up a connection for that. I'll send a pic of my set up tmrw, my question would be if the valve is firmly attached to the supplied bypass and piping( I'll send pic), I'm wondering how to proceed if even feasible w out assistance, although at this point I'd love to remedy myself. But I'm happy to have someone come in now that it seems the issues is isolated, valve is under warranty, tank also, should I contact supplier also?
Many many thanks
 

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Thought to attach a picture of my set up. I plan to reach out to my seller to request whatever is needed, but let me know. O ring, dist tube, manifold, all would require valve removal, which im game to try, but again, you all know best. Thanks Greg
 

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ditttohead

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Removing the valve is very easy to do. Watch my video, it shows the very important step of compressing the bypass into the valve prior to removing the red clips. These are safety clips designed to break if they are removed without the system being depressurised. Once you remove the clips, the bypass pulls away from the valve. Unthread the valve from the tank and look to see if the riser tube is flush with the top of the tank, and check to see that the riser tube matches the valve. The 7000 is available in either 1.05" or 32mm, a lot of inexperienced companies dont know this and mix them up. It can also be due to an improper installation of a riser tube adapter. if it is installed improperly, the adapter will fall out of place over time causing your symptoms.
 

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Thanks, video really helped, using screwdrivers for the clips etc as example, as a novice just wasn't thinking correctly. I'll report back, I feel like I understand the valve now and not apprehensive to work on it. Hopefully hard water no more sooner rather then later. I have a KDF filter installed top of tank also FYI. ? Will check everything and circle back. Thanks
 

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Hello All, Got jammed up last few days, FINALLY got to this today. Broke one red clip(easy to break) when removing the bypass, no biggie I have extras. SO.........., my first valve was 1 inch opening with an adapter, sent with the tank, tube, etc. That was damaged in shipping, wouldnt cycle properly, so i was sent a new valve.

YOU GOT IT. New valve has a 32 mm(=1 1/4 inch) opening, no adapter on it, and still using the original 1 inch tube........ removing the tube wasnt easy, the tank was filled with water, with a low celing and narrow workspace. I had a few questions and posted pictures here to assist. I have KDF 55 media around the tube as you can see in the pic.
That looked to be installed correctly simply surrounding the top of the tube.

1)It looked to me like the tube was flush up to the top of the tank, its a 54" tank.

3)When I request a new 32mm dist pilot/tube, does that come with bottom basket already on it?
or should i request a new 1.05 in tube and an adapter? id much rather get the wider tube. let me know given my set up whats best. I damaged my dist tube when removing it, its indented at the bottom now where it joins the basket,(see pic) so prefer to get a new one

4)This set up has been in place for almost 3 years. Is it fair to say I've been living with fully hard/raw water, or partially? If the tube doesnt match the valve, what exactly is happening in the tank then? The water draws into the valve doesnt make it back out because the tube is not connected tight to the valve?

5)Aside from requesting a new tube, what else do i request if anything, do i leave the water in the tank when i reassemble? When tipping the tank to remove the tube(I had to bc of low celing)some water came out, but there is still a lot left in the tank

I can't thank Dittohead, Gary, Reach enough for simply getting back to me and sticking with me, plumbers who have looked it over couldn't figure it out.

Let me know if im missing anything, thanks again, Greg

I hope as many as possible read this post. i like many others wanted a Fleck valve, and a better system then the lesser ones, and didnt want to pay Culligan etc As a result, even with a plumbers assistance, things didnt work out well. I FINALLY feel like this must be it.
 

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Reach4

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New valve has a 32 mm(=1 1/4 inch) opening, still had the original 1 inch tube........ removing the tube wasnt easy, the tank was filled with water, with a low celing and narrow workspace. I had a few questions and posted pictures here to assist.

I think you can buy the distributor basket and attach it to a piece of pipe. I don't know if it matters if you use PVC or ABS or if you need to cement the bottom distributor basket in place. I do know that the tube should end up flush with the top of the tank, and I expect there is some margin there -- nobody seems to say it calls for precision.

Here is a search for the Fleck 40922
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...ve.com&hl=en&q=site:terrylove.com+fleck+40922

I know nothing about that KDF media guard cylinder, and I was pretty much ignoring that.
 
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Gwarrior99

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OK, I read some more, thats the bottom basket, didnt come with a top basket...i didnt see resin in the valve, but should i have/get a top basket also? Read its difficult to get the tube reseated again at the bottom of the tank. Adapter was on the first valve(I still have it), but not on this valve/the one im using.
 

Gwarrior99

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Thanks, i have a 1 inch dist tube currently, the valve unless I'm wrong needs an adapter or a bigger tube. Id prefer the wider tube. Realized when i looked at my first valve(it broke during shipping and i didnt return it) that is has the adapter Dittohead refers to on the end, originally thought it was just a narrower opening but theres an extra piece there. Well see what others come back with before i request items.
Dittohead, I see, the 40922 comes in 1 inch(1.05). So given my system is deconstructed, happy to upgrade this piece.
But to use the 40922, given it looks to only come in 1.05 inch, assuming i would have to use a 1 inch tube and adapter?
 
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