FIBEROCK Tile Backerboard vs HardieBacker Cement Board

Discussion in 'Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog' started by piezomot, Mar 15, 2013.

  1. piezomot

    piezomot New Member

    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Ontario
    Question to an expert- what is the difference between:

    FIBEROCK Tile Backerboard:

    http://www.homedepot.ca/product/fib...r-panel-square-edge-1-2-in-3-ft-x-5-ft/911233

    and

    HardieBacker Cement Board:

    http://www.homedepot.ca/product/hardiebacker-500-cmt-brd-3x5x042/996568

    When it comes for tiles installation.

    I have heard that FIBEROCK Tile Backerboard would not require any insulation material behind it as it moisture resistant already. Plus it will not crack during installation.

    Also how do I finish joints? The same way for HardieBacker Cement Board?

    [video=youtube;Vwf4JkF1TAc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwf4JkF1TAc [/video]
  2. piezomot

    piezomot New Member

    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Ontario
    I have heard that FIBEROCK Tile Backerboard would not require any insulation material behind it as it moisture resistant already. Plus it will not crack during installation.

    [video=youtube;bPRQ9EtFh-8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPRQ9EtFh-8[/video]
  3. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,892
    Location:
    New England
    They both can wick some moisture, neither is degraded if it does get wet, but neither is truly waterproof and you should have a vapor barrier behind it UNLESS you use a waterproofing layer on top of it. If you screw too close to an edge, you can damage either. I tend to use Hardibacker. Either works. It was funny in the video, when grouting, what the guy is doing verses what they say you should do are not the same! You will pull some grout out of the joints if you do not go diagonally and he was rubbing at 90-degrees. Their instructions on setting and measuring work okay IF the tile has little built-in spacers and are designed to be butted - the spacers leave enough room for the grout. Many tile does not have those built-in spacers, and the spacing can vary all over the place depending on your personal preference and the tile selected, so the measuring process could be way off.
  4. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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  5. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Location:
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    Stop being such a jerk...I've NEVER advocated drywall anywhere in a wet area unless following Schluter's approved methods...this is not one and you know it!
  6. Justadrip

    Justadrip New Member

    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    New York
    Don't worry Jim.... Whipple is just being Whipple. This is one of the last remaining forums he hasn't been booted from. He will tow the line.
  7. jadziedzic

    jadziedzic Member

    Messages:
    90
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    You know, John, I'm very impressed by your knowledge of products & technology related to the tile business. I think you're a dedicated individual who really tries to do his best, and your work I've seen appears to be top-notch. Unfortunately, the one aspect of you that people will most remember is that your actions and behavior on 'net forums is, simply put, immature when it comes to your ongoing feud with Schluter and their certifications regarding use of drywall under Kerdi.

    On one hand you are rightly telling people that flood testing showers is mandated by the plumbing code, but at the same time you have an ongoing problem with the concept of product certification that complies with a given code.

    Is using drywall under Kerdi a good idea? My *personal opinion* jives with yours - it's a stupid idea. Is it permitted by code? Yes, where Schluter has obtained the necessary certifications. Is it acceptable to your local Authority Having Jurisdiction? Ultimately that's the person who has the final say.

    Please, give it a rest.
  8. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,892
    Location:
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    FWIW, Schluter does say to flood test the shower in their instructions...
  9. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Location:
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    Post(s) deleted by John Whipple
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2014
  10. DougB

    DougB Member

    I think it's pretty obvious: A shower / bath is a key component to a modern home. The home owner has invested time / money / energy / into the project. It's a heavy, dirty, job. A lot of planning, problem solving go into each job. The cost and application of the materials is significant. The expected outcome is to last 40 - 50 years.

    The difference in the cost of cement board - that is 100% water resistant - vs dry wall is so insignificant that there is absolutely no reason to risk - even a small failure of the membrane.

    Who knows - a faucet stem or a joint could leak slightly in the wall - once that drywall is wet - it's done.
  11. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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  12. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    You could extend the concern to any home's structure by saying what if they didn't install the windows, doors, or roof properly. If that happens, you'll have damage - damage that may stay hidden until it becomes severe. In a conventional shower, the walls are expected to get wet and you need something that won't be damaged when it happens. CBU is the primary material used since there aren't many people left that are willing to pay for or install a good mudded wall. In a home, the internal walls are expected to remain dry because the windows, doors, and roof are expected to be installed properly - you don't put cbu on the walls for that 'what if' they leak and some places will see much more severe conditions than in a shower - hurricane force winds, torrential rainstorms, really nasty water blowing sideways at high velocities. But, what if you have a leak in your kitchen sink...do you install cbu on the wall there? What about the vanity sink, or around the washing machine? No...not that you couldn't but millions of homes in the USA and elsewhere deem it too small of a risk to be worthwhile. You don't expect your plumbing to leak in the foreseeable future. The vast majority of the time when it does, it doesn't do it from stems, it leaks out the tub spout or showerhead (few use a 'stem' any more, either, it's all cartridges). When properly installed, you don't expect your Kerdi membrane to leak. So, the risk factor, for most people, John excepted, is small, and you have a choice...the quicker, easier, less expensive, fewer joints material, or spend money on something that will take longer, cost more, and not provide a benefit? If it is deemed a benefit to you, go for it. I have confidence in the material, the manufacturer, and my ability to 'do it right the first time'. Feel free to add as many extra layers of protection as you see fit.
  13. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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  14. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    You're right in that a properly built shower is waterproof (or totally water resistant anyway) before the tile are installed - and, that's the key - before the tile are installed. And, a properly built Kerdi shower is both waterproof AND for practical purposes, vapor proof unless you go to extra measures needed for a steam shower - all, before the tile are installed. Personally, I think hotmop is a lousy way to build a shower...I think it's the availability of cheap labor and tradition that it's still around. If you then try to use Kerdi on it, that's even dumber unless you tear out the drain and install a proper Kerdi one - then ignore that it's there at all. When building a shower, it's dumb to mix systems and barriers on both sides of panels is also dumb as it traps moisture, if it ever got there.
  15. DougB

    DougB Member

    Residential Building Codes:

    Section 2509.2 Base for tile.

    Cement, fiber-cement or glass mat gypsum backers in compliance with ASTM C 1178, C 1288 or C 1325 and installed in accordance with manufacturer recommendations shall be used as a base for wall tile in tub and shower areas and wall and ceiling panels in shower areas.

    2509.3 Limitations.

    Water-resistant gypsum backing board shall not be used in the following locations:

    ---> 2. Where there will be direct exposure to water or in areas subject to continuous high humidity.

    From a USG rep

    Residential Building Code everywhere requires no white gypsum wall board or green board - but rather a tile backer board made specifically for that purpose. Schluter does have a evaluation report that you can copy and take to the local building official and see if they accept it or not - then get their approval in writing before hanging your board and membrane.

    Most folks just use a traditional backer board and then the waterproof membrane because then there is absolutely no question that you meet code AND have a waterproof installation.


    http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/i....htm?bu=IC-P-2006-000001&bu2=IC-P-2006-000019
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  16. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    Oh Oh Doug. Now you have done it.

    The story goes like this.

    In the TCNA and TTMAC Specifications it mentions you need to follow the installation instructions of the product supplier. In Schluter's instructions it allows drywall. So, if you follow the TCNA and TTMAC recommendations about following product manufactures recommendations you get around this - so they say.

    I went to my building department in North Vancouver and asked. I was told no.

    I called Schluter and asked and they said Yes.

    There is no inspection for this so really you will not get caught.

    Other than Ardex I have found no other company recommending drywall. I asked my Mapei rep what thinset he recommends for installing Kerdi over drywall in a shower and he said none.

    Ardex hooks you up if you want to go this route - but why would you?

    There is more to the puzzle since if the drywall has been tapped with drywall compound then you need to prime. But they won't tell you which primer. Just it should be primed.

    It's so easy using drywall instead of switching from drywall to backer board. No extra stud(s). pennies a sheet to install for most builders. Fast. Quick. Cheap. Easy. Tiny #6 x 1 1/4" screws.

    Lots of drywall crews bang in Den Shield. The prep for the tile included in the Drywall crews scope of work. A good boarder making about $5.00 board he installs. Average sheet of concrete board requires about $6.00 in fasteners. Not much sense as a drywall contractor to use concrete board. If the city does not check and no one cares. Cheap and Easy wins.

    Most times these shower codes (mentioned above) references refer to a typical shower pan with a 40mil liner(or hot mop). Concrete board or Den Shield approved for use over this liner as a backer board (if seams are tapped). These backer Boards approved just like that - nothing else. That is with no added topical waterproofing. Lapping some building paper or vapour barrier over the liner before boarding a wise idea if you go this route.

    Using Kerdi is an upgrade and drywall used in this typical scenerio (installed into shower over liner) a recipe for disaster if it starts wicking water up the back. Kerdi used over drywall with a Kerdi drain and Kerdi shower pan much safer - but again Why take any chance.

    When selling Topical membrane you are selling an improved shower design. How cheaply you get the benefits depends on how much effort you take and what measure you enlist.
  17. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,892
    Location:
    New England
    Mixing systems is never a good idea...nowhere does Schluter ever say you could use Kerdi on the walls using a conventional shower pan. Doing that certainly IS a disaster waiting (not long!) to happen. You need to use Kerdi on all the wet areas along with an approved drain which prevents moisture from penetrating the pan.
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