Feed from Breaker Panel

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by MrBillyd, Feb 19, 2012.

  1. MrBillyd

    MrBillyd New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Scottsdale
    I am in the middle of a major Kitchen/lighting remodel. I tore out some sofits and AC ducting and ran new ducting over the joist. During this job, I of course found many of my Romex wirings not over the joist and in my sofits. So, I am almost completed rerouting all of these wires so I can move on the dry wall. Before I do close it up, I need to run a 8/2 for my soon to be bought Double oven.
    I am also planning on running 2 new 14/2 15 amp breaker feeds to separate my kitchen\garage\living room lighting. I am also planning on running a 12/2 feed over across the entire length of my house that will power my out door Barbi\ Bar\ Patio ect.
    I just had my panel installed a few months ago\ so feeding these new wires up through the back of the panel and up through a brick wall cavity is not going to happen. I plan on running some conduit maybe 1inch, from a Knock out hole on the side of the panel up until it just gets into my attic. The length of this conduit would be about 3-4 feet.
    What size conduit would fit one 8/2; two 14/2 and one 12/2. Do I have to use EMT or could I use Scd 40 PVC. I think I need a 90 out of the panel and a 90 to get me into my attic. I am not sure about the code on fill capacity when using 3 different sized wires.
    The other question I had was about indoor 12/2. The indoor 12/2 is much cheaper so I planned on running it across my attic to a box. Then when I do the job out side, I would run the outdoor type cable from the box to the backyard items.

    Thanks for any thougths

    Bill
  2. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    Typically, cable is not enclosed in conduit. For a short run, for mechanical protection, it may be OK. The electricians will let us know about that.
  3. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    Sounds like several pulls I just made in 3/4" aluminum flex. Or blue PVC
  4. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,542
    Location:
    North Carolina
    You will find that using an LB is better than using a 90. Be sure to check if you need 8/3 with ground for the oven. I would bet that the lights and clocks are all 120 volt therefore an 8/3 would be needed.
    If you use 1 ½ inch PVC I don’t think you will have a problem. Be sure that the knock out you choose is below the bus bars of the panel to reject water away from them. Never come into the outside panel beside of or above the bus bars.
  5. MrBillyd

    MrBillyd New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Scottsdale
    Thanks for the feed back. After looking at it deeper, I have decided to give it a go to try and route the new wires the same way as all the Original wires.
    To make this possible I am going to roto zip one of blocks a foot above my panel as I plan on a stucco job over the slump block in the near future.
    I also decided to run a 6/2 rather than a 8/2 because I am traveling 80 feet. I have down loaded 3 of the different double ovens manuals of brands that I might use. All of them call for a 40amp breaker, and they have 3 and 4 wire instructions.
    I am not sure a 6/3 would be worth the cost, as I don't have a neutral coming from the feed from the street. In my box all my neutrals are tied to the same bus bars as my grounds. In the wire instructions it says as long as I am not in a mobile home or Canada, I can tie my 6/2 ground wire to the ovens ground and N. In this house I am not sure what the 6/3 would by me?
    Bill
  6. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

    Messages:
    3,250
    Location:
    Land of Cheese
    If you are supplying a 240/120 appliance under the NEC, you are allowed to connect an existing 3-wire circuit to an appliance, but any new circuit is required to have a separate equipment grounding conductor.
  7. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,180
    Location:
    New England
    The ground wire is not supposed to carry current. It is there as a safety. If you use it instead of a neutral, your oven's 120vac circuits will be using the ground wire as a current carrying conductor...that is not allowed. Ground should only carry current to provide a path to trip the breaker in case of a fault, not as a 'normal' situation.
  8. MrBillyd

    MrBillyd New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Scottsdale
    Okay, by code if my stove/cooker dies can I replace it and use the existing 6/2 wire? I would assume the answer is yes? Just curious as I have not considered pulling out my existing 6/2
    Now when I add the double oven, I need another feed so code says I need to use a 6/3 as your not allowed to tie the netural and ground together any more. Does anyone know when the code changed?
    The past 30 years my stove ground has been carrying current. So, the newer standard provides a higher current capacity should something short while using the oven?
    They tie in my pannel in the same spot? So where is the benefit?
  9. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

    Messages:
    3,250
    Location:
    Land of Cheese
    It's pretty important at this point that we know the whole story.

    You posted in another thread that your existing circuit is wired with 6/3 XHHW, (which has an ampacity of 50amps). 6/3 means 3- 6 gauge conductors, which would normally be wired as 2 hots and a neutral. In this arrangement, there is no equipment grounding conductor.

    One would assume that this was installed prior to the change in the code which requires such a circuit to have an equipment grounding conductor. This circuit is fine for continued use on an appliance that is rated for such, as it is grandfathered.

    Any new circuits must have an equipment grounding conductor.
  10. MrBillyd

    MrBillyd New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Scottsdale
    Thanks for the reply. I assumed it was 2 hots and a ground on my old wiring.. I pulled the plug of my old stove apart and all 3 AL conductors are the same size. You helped clarify my confusion.
    So I will be getting the 6/3 to run my Oven.

    My new double oven will be next to my Induction stove top. I was planning on using the existing wiring that I mentioned in the other post, as doesn't have a equipment ground the install instructions say to tie it to netural. Would it be against code to share equipment grounds rather than tie it to netural?
  11. TJanak

    TJanak Member

    Messages:
    155
    Location:
    South TX
    FYI:
    Equipment grounding conductor = ground
    Grounded circuit conductor = neutral

    I have the same setup as you, a panel with neutrals and grounds connected on the same bar. This is ok if it is at the service entrance panel, but if it's a subpanel then technically not ok (like mine is). If this is your service entrance panel then use the 6/3 and put the neutrals and grounds together in the panel.

    I ran 6/3 and did not use the ground. That way if I upgrade my subpanel my wiring will work. And if my cooktop has any 120v parts then the current will be flowing through an insulated neutral (white) wire. Although bonded to the equipment as well and not to code ;)
  12. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,180
    Location:
    New England
    Don't think two wires with a ground was ever okay for a stove...two wires with a neutral, yes. There's a big difference technically between a neutral and a ground...electricity must have a full path from the generator back to the generator...this means either from one leg back to neutral, or from one leg to the other. This enables you to get either 120vac hot to neutral, or 240vac, hot to hot. Ground should NEVER be used as a current carrying path in the normal scheme of things, only as a safety path to blow the fuse or pop the CB and protect the user. Bonding the ground and neutral works, but it still is providing the insulated path for current when done right.

    A purely 240vac appliance does not need a neutral when it has no internal need for 120vac, but it still should have a ground lead for protection.
  13. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

    Messages:
    3,250
    Location:
    Land of Cheese
    A 30-60 amp circuit must have a minimum 10 GA copper or 8 GA aluminum equipment ground which must be run with the other conductors of the same circuit.
  14. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,542
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Yes as long as the circuit is in the serrvice equipment and in the service equipment only


    for a short peirod during WWII this was allowed but it has never been a compliant installation at any other time

    If it has been like this for 30 years then for 30 years it has been no compliant. In order to be compliant it would to have to be installed between 1938 and 1944. If it was installed at any other time then it was installed no compliant.

    I drove down the next street over at 55 for years. A couple of weeks ago the Highway Patrol showed me the err of my ways. Just because something has been that way for years does not make it compliant or safe.
    When we first moved into this house there was no vent pipe through the roof. The vent stopped in the attic. It had been that way for years but I got tired of the smell and did something about it
  15. MrBillyd

    MrBillyd New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Scottsdale
    Cacher_Chick clued me into my wrong judgment. I mispoke about my current 30 year set up. In another post I put the text printed on my old wire. It has 3 insulated conductors and no bare wire equipment ground. I wrongly assumed it was a 6/2. I just pulled the 6/3 copper wire today. Thanks everyone as you saved me, I just retuned the wrong cable and pulled the correct on.

    The roto zip of the block was a big waste of time. After exposing the wires I found there was no path to my attic. All the orginal wires did not go through the 2x8 on top of the block. When I removed the vented sofit 2x4 I found evidence that they drilled though the board and into a solid brick and then gave up. They dove through the side of the block at the very top of the wall and came up between the 2x8 on top of the block and 1 1/2 inch firing strip on the bedroom wall. They then stapled the wires back to the 2x8 so they wouldn't pull or get into the drywall.

    All that goofing around on that boon dogal, I wound up just coming out of my Square D panel at the very bottom side knock out like I orginally planned. The 1 1/2 PVC did not fit the knock out, so I had to file it a bit.
    I did the 1 1/2 inch LB at the panel and the long sweep 90 as it entered the existing 1 1/2 vent hole in the sofit. .

    Thanks again.

    Bill
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