Faucet hose extension, Chicago

Discussion in 'Illinois Plumbing Code Questions' started by PixieFix, Feb 21, 2013.

  1. PixieFix

    PixieFix New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Chicago
    While my condo's maintenance head was looking under my kitchen sink (on a different matter), he pointed out that my faucet hose was not connected directly to the valve. He said it's illegal but he did add later that he wasn't sure.

    My faucet hose-extension tube-valve looks like this:
    [​IMG]

    I live in Chicago, in a high-rise condo. My question is, does it violate a particular Chicago building/plumbing code for a kitchen faucet hose to be connected to a valve via an extension tube?

    I would like to know which particular item in the Chicago/Illinois plumbing code states how a faucet hose should or should not be connected to a valve. Please pardon my silly question. I find navigating through the Chicago/Illinois plumbing code quite confusing.
  2. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,048
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    it appears that the "hose" you are referring to is the supply line to the faucet, in which case you can "extend" it as far as necessary to reach the valve. He is wrong. I would be more concerned about the "clear" hose behind it, because that material may NOT be suitable for "full system pressures".
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
  3. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,268
    Location:
    New England
    If the T's are brass or bronze, they're okay, but if galvanized, I'd be worried about them in the long-term.
  4. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,048
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    IN Chicago, galvanized tees are common in older structures. We were using them into the 60s.
  5. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,268
    Location:
    New England
    Brass or bronze will outlast the structure! Galvanized can live long, but it WILL start to rust out after awhile. While redoing things, I'd get rid of them.
  6. SewerRatz

    SewerRatz Illinois Licensed Plumber

    Messages:
    1,705
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    In High Rise buildings in Chicago, flexible, and plastic faucet supplies are against code. It must be done with copper supply lines. (can be chrome plated copper)
  7. PixieFix

    PixieFix New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Chicago
    Sorry. I didn't get to see the replies until now. I thought I'd be getting instant e-mail notification when replies are posted.


    The clear hose behind it is 3/8" PE and goes from one cold water valve to the water filter (to the water heater-hot water dispenser).



    One galvanized tee developed a leak so when I called in a plumber, I had him replace all the water supply lines (under the kitchen sink) with soldered copper and chrome-plated brass valves. The valves were also raised so that the faucet supply lines didn't need to have extensions.



    That's "flexible plastic" right? Not flexible "any material" (e.g., the flexible braided water supply lines that come with faucets)?


    --------------------------------

    More on plastic faucet supplies in high rise buildings in Chicago:

    Under-the-sink water filters usually come with PE tubing - one connected to the water supply valve and one to the water dispenser (or ice maker, or coffeemaker/brewer). Hot/cold water dispenser faucets usually come with a silicone/norprene hot water outlet tubing. Are the PE and silicone/norprene tubings included or not included in the "plastic faucet supplies" that are against code?

    Could anyone post a link to the Illinois/Chicago code and also quote the specific statement "verbatim" in the code that refers to extensions and material (plastic, flexible) in high rise condos?

    Is there a section (which section number?) that deals with tubings/connections for water dispensers/coffeemakers/ice makers (in high rise condos in Chicago)? Can tubings coming FROM a water filter be plastic (PE)? In all the set-ups I've seen, tubings from the water filter going to water heater-hot & cold water faucet/coffee brewer/ice maker were PE tubings.
  8. SewerRatz

    SewerRatz Illinois Licensed Plumber

    Messages:
    1,705
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    The braided hoses are in most cases just a plastic outer weave over a rubber hose, there are some that use a stainless steal weave over a rubber hose, again those do not meet the plumbing code. The poly lines used on water filters, ice makers and instant hot taps need to be changed out to copper lines. There is soft copper that comes in rolls at the size needed for these filters and taps. I do not have my Chicago Code book here in my home, so I can not quote you the title, and section. You can call the City Plumbing department and ask them. Or you can buy the code book, the link to the Chicago Municipal codes that you linked to in the other post is incomplete and of course does not list the section you want me to point you to.

    For 85 bucks you can have a nice handy reference guide to the Chicago Plumbing codes. https://www.lawbulletin.com/real-estate/index-publishing/chicago-plumbing-code
  9. PixieFix

    PixieFix New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Chicago

    What are the supply lines that come attached to most faucets, sold in hardware stores, generally made of? Are they just rubber hoses with a braided SS weave?

    Interesting. How is a consumer supposed to know what the supply line material is without cutting the line itself to look at the cross section? That kind of info is usually not included in a faucet's product description. Does the city/government expect a consumer to know and to proactively find out the material of a new faucet's supply line and change it if it's not entirely metal? A consumer is supposed to know that he should discard the silicone/norprene tubing that comes with a hot water dispenser tank and replace it with a metal tubing?

    I'm not attacking you with my questions. I am just in awe of the many plumbing rules that a person is supposed to know without having ready access to the written rules that he's supposed to know and have to rely on hearsay (most of the time). I say hearsay because if a city official were to ask me why XYZ was done, I would have to say, 'because plumber ABC said it was the thing to be done." I can't say "because the city code says "<state the rule verbatim>". Even during the few times when I did contact the city regarding codes/rules, they would also say something but not state where that rule is/what the specific rule is verbatim. In this world, written still counts more (especially in courts) vs just oral. I usually feel like Yentl singing "Where is it written...?" ;)

    The usual setup, in residential homes, for ice makers/fridge water dispensers would be copper tubing in the wall but PE from the icemaker/water valve to the filling tube. Even the manufacturer's authorized service dealers use PE when they do the installation. Do plumbers actually change those PE tubings to copper when they're called in to service a home?

    If copper tubings are connected to each other by a plastic fitting (e.g., John Guest union connector), would that be not up to code then because there's a plastic fitting involved? What about the water filter that the copper tubings are connected to? They're plastic too.

    I suppose the government makes up codes/rules but doesn't actually expect people to follow or actually has government agencies enforce (until such time when a significant accident/disaster occurs). How else do we explain all the hundreds of ice makers and water dispensers that come with PE tubings by default? Or that some instant water heaters (for dispensers) use vinyl tubing inside? The current model of Insinkerator water heater leaks after a year or two because they used a vinyl tubing inside which degrades with all that heat.

    Anyway, got to go. This was fun. I think I'll read the plumbing code from front to back by making it my to-read-before-falling-asleep book. :D
  10. SewerRatz

    SewerRatz Illinois Licensed Plumber

    Messages:
    1,705
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    As a plumber and when I am called in to install and hook up an ice maker, its all copper. Did you know most ice maker kits that come with the saddle valve does not meet the Illinois code? Illinois Plumbing code states saddle valves are not allowed. As for faucets, there each major manufacture does have faucets were you have to hook up a supply from the angle stop to the faucet itself, no supplied supply lines. Also a home owner in Illinois is not required to know all the codes for the state, or the amendments for counties, cities, and townships. It is a plumber that needs to know the all the codes.

    I can tell you I do not know all the codes for every city, township or county in the state of Illinois. But what I do is I contact the city, township county, and ask what code do they follow, and what amendments they have. As for unlicensed persons doing plumbing. Illinois does allow a home owner to do their own plumbing on their own home, not rental properties not a relatives home, just their own home they live in. Also they are (homeowners) are required to get a permit (this is when you ask the inspector what the codes allows and disallows). , and have all the work inspected.

    Also about your blanket explanation of manufactures by default supplying PE, (more likely pex since most places have a ban on PE), is they are not required to sell you a product that meets the plumbing code in your area. Heck the big box stores sell AAV's (Air Admittance Valve) which are against Illinois Plumbing code, but yet they sell it and home owners buy them. But when they go to sell their home and an inspection is done, and they catch the AAV installed, they will make you hire a plumber to properly vent the fixture the AAV was installed on. There is a lot of things sold to the consumers that do not meet codes, electrical, plumbing, hvac, and so on. It is up to the DIY to ensure they products they are using meet their local codes. If they do not want to go through the trouble of finding out what is allowed or not, they can always hire a licensed professional.
  11. PixieFix

    PixieFix New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Chicago
    No, I did not know that. Although even without knowing what the code says, I wouldn't think of using a saddle valve. It just defies logic to poke a hole in a pipe then attempt to seal it with a pin (albeit, a thicker pin) and rubber around the pin. Additionally, it’s less trouble (to me) to add a tee and a compression valve than to permanently damage a water supply pipe.


    PEX and ban on PE?

    We may be talking at cross purposes. Looking back at my earlier posts here, I realize my scenario may not have been clearly described although I did mention that the water filter is the under-sink type. Anyway, the scenario is:

    - high-rise condo, Like in many other condos, pipes beyond the wall are common elements. Unit owners cannot touch them. As far as I know and can see, the buildings have galvanized iron pipes. Unit owners are only allowed to meddle with the water supply pipes that are already sticking out from the walls of their kitchen and bathroom.
    - filter is under-sink type. Hot water heater tank is under-sink type ( < 1 gal cap.) installed immediately underneath hot & cold water dispenser faucet that is mounted on sink countertop. I don’t have a whole house filtration system because I only need filtered water for cooking and drinking.

    Back to the PEX and ban on PE. My current water filter is a 3M Filtrete. It came with two PE tubings. I know they’re PE because they look and feel like PE (not like PEX) and because the imprint on the tubings say “Parker Parflex PE 3/8â€. Insinkerator water filters and instant hot water heater/tank also come with Parker PE tubing. Both 3M and Insinkerator come with Parker plastic quick connect fittings. Insinkerator uses a silicone tubing for hot water coming out of the tank into the dispenser faucet. Another common brand, Waste King, comes with a Norprene tubing for the hot water tank-to-dispenser faucet connection and CCK brand of quick connect fittings.

    I looked at other under-sink filters available at my local hardware stores and they had PE tubings inside the boxes.

    The tubings that come supplied with under-sink water filters and instant hot water heaters/tanks (for hot water dispenser faucets) are short, less than 2 ft. I would assume that’s because they’re expected to be used under the sink where the distances, from the water supply line to the filter as well as from the dispenser faucet line to the filter, are short. None of the tubings are meant to go beyond walls or floors or around cabinets. And I would expect that. I wouldn’t want plastic tubings in hidden/inaccessible areas.

    I mentioned, in a previous post, that I had a licensed plumber (any plumber working in the condo has to submit info – license, insurance – to our Condo management office) replace the water supply lines (under the kitchen sink) with soldered copper and chrome-plated brass valves. The plumber reconnected the same PE tubing (connected to the under-sink water filter) to the new water supply valve. The building/condo engineer came in to inspect (before and after work inspection by the building engineer is required in our condo) the finished work and didn’t comment on the PE tubing. I did not conclude that anything was amiss since neither the plumber nor the engineer removed nor tell me to replace the PE tubings.

    Here’s my under-sink filtered water set-up:

    Water supply line brass valve --> PE tubing --> water filter --> PE tubing --> Y fitting (this came with my previous Insinkerator water filter/heater/dispenser faucet ensemble)

    Y fitting (1st connection) --> PE tubing --> quick connect fitting --> Cu tubing of hot & cold water dispenser faucet ​

    Y fitting (2nd connection) --> PE tubing --> quick connect fitting --> Copper tubing for ice maker water supply line
    (Cu tubing disappears into wall and probably either runs under the floor or around the wall and comes out somewhere below the top of my fridge. I don’t know because I’ve never had to pull out the fridge. My fridge’s innards – compressor, ice maker solenoid valve etc – are on top of the fridge and so is the icemaker fill tube. The Cu tubing appears from the back coming from below the top of the fridge.)

    Cu tubing from below top of fridge --> inline water filter --> PE tubing --> solenoid valve --> super thick non-removable vinyl fill tube

    The vinyl fill tube came with the fridge and it’s clamped “permanently†(i.e., clamp cannot be accessed without removing the entire compressor module) to the top of the fridge which is really a pain. I would much have preferred the removable fill tubes included with mainstream (Whirlpool, Frigidaire, etc.) brands because they can be removed for cleaning.

    I used a ~2 ft PE tubing between the inline water filter and solenoid valve because I didn’t want the corrosion products that eventually form on Cu tubing. When I replaced the ice maker (Teflon coating was already flaking off.), I also replaced the solenoid valve. I took the valve apart since I was replacing it anyway. There was a lot of green deposits on the inlet mesh screen and it was green inside as well between the diaphragm and the outlet. The ice maker fill tube was also covered with a lot of green deposits. It took a long time scrubbing that non-removable fill tube with a very long testtube brush. Even though the water coming through the Cu tubing is already filtered (via the under-sink water filter), I added an additional inline water filter on top of the fridge just to filter off particulates (originating from the existing Cu tubing) and not ending up on the fill tube again and into my ice cubes.​
  12. SewerRatz

    SewerRatz Illinois Licensed Plumber

    Messages:
    1,705
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Well when the PE pipes let loose and flood your unit and the units below you, you're going to find out real fast what it means to be liable for your damage as well as the other units as well as any damage to the building. As I mentioned before just because a manufacture of an appliance uses plastic piping, does not mean it meets the local codes. I can guarantee you if you read the instructions that come with the water filter system, instant hot systems, even the refrigerator ice maker hook up, it will tell you that all local plumbing codes must be followed, and if there is no local codes addressing the installation of their product, then and only then, you follow the manufactures suggested installation.

    I wonder if this licensed plumber carried a Chicago Plumbing Contractors License? Otherwise he is not allowed to work in the city of Chicago. I had a Chicago Contractors License till last year. They changed the bonding requirements, which my bond did not meet at the time. I have to go through another 6 month waiting period for the City's legal department to approve my new bonds. If he is a Licensed Chicago Plumbing Contractor and left you plastic tubing in, he can be fined and held liable if any damage happens.
  13. SewerRatz

    SewerRatz Illinois Licensed Plumber

    Messages:
    1,705
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Here you go, a nice picture of one of the type of failures that can happen with the bradded stainless steel supplies. I do hope your condo/renters insurance is up to date.

    DSC04203-1.jpg

Share This Page