Early Design/Planning Questions

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by MarkMcK, Sep 19, 2007.

  1. MarkMcK

    MarkMcK New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Looking for some education and advice on an upcoming project. Nothing has been done yet wrt selecting a contractor and system design, so we're pretty early in the game [no shovel has hit the dirt]. The little I've read/understood to this point has me wondering what I should reasonably expect in terms of the 'design' to get an operating, simple and reliable system. My engineering nature is to seek some basic knowledge of what to expect rather than to just let 'nature take its course' and sign the contract/check. So.... Here goes [and thanks for your patience and help]

    I need to put down a well which will service both a barn and outbuildings with water.

    The barn will need to support....

    1. Two horses at 17 gal/day each
    2. An efficiency apartment with lav, toilet, shower, dishwasher, clothes washer, kitchen sink
    3. Wash stall
    4. Two hose bibs
    5. Minor sprinkler system [4-8 heads]
    6. And probably something else I've forgotten!!!

    Each outbuilding needs to handle...*

    1. Up to six horses at 17 gal/day each
    2. One yard hydrant

    [​IMG]
    They make yard hydrants that are self draining for winter use.

    *Not expected to be simultaneously

    Now what I consider to be the 'interesting'/challenging part....

    The distance from the well to the barn is about 70 ft [No head]
    The distance from the barn to the 'South' outbuilding is 400 ft [No head]
    The distance from the barn to the 'North' outbuilding is 1500 ft [~20 ft head] :eek:

    At this point I am planning on locating all the above ground 'bits-n-pieces' in the barn [tanks, electrical panels, valves, etc]. The outbuilding runs go from the barn, under a road and then split N/S to form the individual branches.

    wrt the horses, I don't know how many gallons at one 'session' are consumed or the rate [GPM]. The waterers I've seen call for anywhere from 5 - 15 GPM depending on the manufacturer/model. If I had to guess, I'd say your 'average' horse drinks for about 5-7 sec at a time.

    Horse 'showers' are considerably shorter than your average teenager as they are 'spray-soap-rinse' rather than 'spray-spray-spray, soap, rinse-rinse-rinse' affairs. More like washing a small car. :D

    The well is pretty much a non-issue in that I'll get what I get in terms of flow-rate. I guess I can control [to a degree] the depth for 'storage' and I'd appreciate any thoughts in that regard.

    The key concerns at this point [given my sparse knowledge] are pressure tank(s), pump(s), and type/size of pipe.

    Appreciate your time and help....

    Cheers

    Mark
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2009
  2. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,317
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    Your pump depends on the well capacity.

    I would put a tank at the barn and have it operate the pressure switch for the pump. Then you don't need any wires from the remote buildings.

    Operate the tank at fairly high pressure so it will be able to deliver water to the remote tanks. With the long runs you will want a tank at each of the outbuildings. The size of the tanks depends on how much water you need from the yard hydrants at the outbuildings. If you want to fill a couple of 5 gallon buckets, you should have maybe a 30 or 40 gallon bladder tank. If you need sustained flow, then you need a bigger tank or a large pipe from the barn.

    For the horses, put a 50 gallon stock tank in each barn with a float valve. It will fill when water is available. You can allow 1 GPM for each tank but it really could be neglected.

    I would use a larger tank at the barn because the outbuilding tanks will draw water after the pump shuts off and you want to minimize cycling. I would use about an 80 gallon tank and operate it between 50 and 70 psi (you can try different values after installation) so you get faster fill at the remote tanks. You could operate the remote tanks with a 20 psi precharge so you will have more water immediately available for the hydrant at the end of a long line.

    Your capacity for irrigation depends on the well and the pump capacity.

    Pipe size to the tanks needs some calculations but not larger than 1" poly. You might get by with 3/4" if you don't need a lot of water from the hydrants.
  3. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,490
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    With all the requirements for variable flow rates you have, using a Cycle Stop Valve would be the best way to design this system. You only need a single 20 gallon size tank. If you want 50/70 pressure switch setting then use a 60 PSI Valve. Then you can tee off from the main line as many times as you need and go anywhere with the water lines. Horse watering floats are notorious for cycling pumps excessively, and remote located tanks can fill at different rates which causes even more problems. If your well will make as much water as you need for peak demands, you do not need any water stored in tanks.

    http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/video/commercial-dsl.wmv

    See the link above;
  4. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    Why would anyone run a 3/4" line that far???
  5. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,490
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    You need to use large enough pipe that you don't lose to much pressure before the water gets to the other end.
  6. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,317
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    If there are tanks at the remote locations, and the water consumption is small such as a horse watering device and a hydrant that is used only when someone is there, the pressure will equalize to the hydrostatic pressure within a short time after the demand and pumping cease, regardless of the size of the pipe.

    If the remote tanks are smaller than the primary tank and precharged as recommended in my first post, that equalization phase of the cycle will not cause the pressure to drop to the starting pressure of the pressure switch where it will immediately restart the pump.

    If there is a cycle stop valve controlling the filling of the primary tank, which controls the flow to 1 GPM or so when the primary tank pressure exceeds the regulator setting on the CSV (60 psi recommended in an earlier post), then the flow to the remote tanks is also restricted and will be slower than it would be if there is no CSV and the pump is allowed to operate at full capacity up to the shutoff point of 70 psi. That will increase the pumping time on the fill cycle and will increase power consumption.
  7. Rancher

    Rancher Guest

    If you don't put pressure tanks at the out buildings you will be disappointed, if you use 3/4" PCV to the out building that is 1,500 feet away the pressure drop for 5 GPM will be 35 psi, with another 8 psi drop due to the elevation that's with a constant 60 psi at the tank at the barn. If you don't need a lot of water all at one time, 3/4" is the cheapest way to go. Try it first without the pressure tanks, and if that is unacceptable you can always go with a pressure tank. Water trough floats do not cause rapid cycling of well pumps, unless the horses are playing with them, but normally you buy the ones that have a protective cover so that cannot happen.

    Rancher
  8. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,124
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Check out TABLE 6-5 in the link below

    http://www.iapmo.org/common/ROP2004/upc04rop/preprint/ch6.pdf

    Pressure remains the same, but you do get a lot of friction loss.

    With a 3/4 line at over 60 PSI, this is how much water you will get at the end of the pipe.

    80 feet. 20 units
    400 feet, 8 units
    1000 feet, 4 units

    At 1500 feet, it will be even less.
    I don't know why you would bother with tanks at the barns though.
    I would think that properly sizing the pipe would be the better way to go.

    http://www.terrylove.com/watersize.htm
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2007
  9. Rancher

    Rancher Guest

  10. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,124
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    That's a fun calculator.
    Schedule 40 3/4 loses over 32 PSI in 1500 feet with 5 GPM
    1" loses about 10 PSI
    1-1/4" loses less than 3 PSI

    If you are looking at something higher like maybe 20 GPM
    3/4" loses 418 PSI (Ya I know, impossible)
    1" loses 129 PSI
    2" loses 4.7 PSI
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2007
  11. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    Yeah Rancher,

    That's pretty cool. I'm going to save that one on the desktop. It will save opening up the book all the time. I assume the Viscosity of water is 1.0 and the Specific Gravity is the same. I'm no Chemist though.

    bob...
  12. Rancher

    Rancher Guest

    Yeah I know to really be correct, it needs to be distilled water at 25 degrees C, I also found that formula on the web but I decided that BobNH needed something to add to this pressure loss calcuation.

    Also note that the executable program doesnot give the same results as the Java based program.

    But this is a Farm/Ranch that this guy is plumbing, so...it's like horseshoes and hand grenades, you only have to be close.

    3/4" PCV is so much cheaper that I have a 2" line from my well to the house (500') and then I spider web out from there and do mutiple interconnects between 3 lines at where game birds get watered, where I grow pine trees, where the horses get put out during the day, and at the barn where the wash rack is. Basically 3 - 3/4" lines end up at the Barn, 400' from the house.

    Rancher
  13. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,490
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    If you use large enough pipe, you don't need tanks at remote locations. If you don't use large enough pipe, remote tanks will continue to fill after the pump has shut off, making the pump cycle several times before the tanks are all full.

    An yes stock tank float valves are notorious for causing the pump to cycle. Especially if there are multiple float valves. As the valve gets closer to the full line, the GPM continues to lessen, and the pump keeps cycling until the stock tank is full. I have only heard people explain this problem about 100 times a year for 30 years.

    The CSV solves this problem by keeping the pump from cycling as the float gets higher and the GPM continues to decrease. The CSV also makes remote tanks fill at the same time, regardless of the line size, because it only fills the tanks at 1 GPM and there is no friction loss. Also the reason you don't need remote or extra tanks.
  14. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    Nobody can say you don't have enough to water the bird now can they?

    bob...
  15. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    You want 1" 160 or 200 psi rated PE pipe (only one fitting on each end) from the pump (not over 500' deep in the well, if over then 20' sections of sch 80 pvc) to a CSV and then a small nominal 20 gal pressure tank. Then 1.25" 160 or 200 psi rated PE pipe from the tank the 1500' to the farthest outbuilding. Then 160 or 200 psi rated 1" PE pipe from a tee off teh 1.25" to the closer outbuilding. PE pipe commonly comes in 500' rolls but can be ordered in 1000' or longer rolls. You only need one fitting on each end and a couple of couplers if using more than one roll. Use SS insert fittings with double opposed Ss hose clamps per underground fitting.

    PE pipe has the lowest pressure loss per 100' of all materials, bar none. And it is always the lowest cost.

    The pump has to has to be sized to deliver the peak demand for the apartment and the other water uses, at the pressure you operate it at and total dynamic head of the system.

    That is the lowest cost system and the easiest to install, you simply unroll the pipe into the trench as you unroll it on the ground along side the trench., It's the simplest and most dependable system you can design or use and it is capable of delivering more water for future use if needed. Like a few beef cattle possibly. Washing equipment and vehicles etc.. If it is frozen, PE pipe is also much more forgiving than other materials.

    A recovery flow rate down to even 2 gpm is not a problem (for all but your irrigation possibly) if you have say 200+ gals of storage; as in a 6" well where you get 1.47 gals/ft of water above the pump inlet. The pump has to be sized to draw water from the depth it is set at. And I'll be damned if I'd pump and move water for plants and trees that couldn't survive naturally (without me). I wouldn't plant them to begin with. And if she whom I love and admire and must obey wanted them... well she'd have to be 'educated'. ;)

    http://www.oilcreek.com/supp/water/size.php

    http://tinyurl.com/dkeen

    http://www.endot.com/support/installation/Application_Notes.pdf?Ins=waterpipe
  16. MarkMcK

    MarkMcK New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Very much appreciate everyone's inputs/comments. Here's what I've received so far from the local installers wrt the tanks and distribution lines....

    Option A: 1 x Flexcon Challenger PC-244 tank [23.9 gal drawdown at 40/60] with 1 1/4 inch; 160 psi PE for the distribution lines [brass? connectors]

    Option B: 2 x Goulds Hydro-Pro V350 [17.4 gal drawdown each at 40/60] with 1 1/2 inch PVC distribution lines [Contractor didn't specify Sch 40/80 or length of pipe used]

    I'd be interested in the pros/cons of PE vice PVC. Looks like either would 'work' supplying 5-10 gpm at the distant [1500ft] end.

    No one has professed much experience/knowledge wrt CSV option. I understand a small tank would be used with CSV. Any guidelines in that regard??

    Thanks All

    Mark
  17. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    Stay with option #1. Stay away from the Goulds tank.

    The CSV will save you money in a lot of ways and is the way to go. Did any of these guys know what one was?

    bob...
  18. MarkMcK

    MarkMcK New Member

    Messages:
    7
    wrt the CSV neither had heard of it but were willing to install. One did suggest a variable speed pump, but I don't plan on going that route.

    Still looking for thoughts on PVC/PE. PE is attractive for its fewer pieces/parts and, as I understand it, reduced friction loss. The one guy that recommended PVC expressed concern over increased potential damage to the PE from rocks in the trench. My local soil/water conservation guy also seconded the PVC as material of choice but I don't recall why...

    Any tank size recommendations with CSV in my particular case??

    vr

    Mark
  19. Rancher

    Rancher Guest

    I used PVC because it is commonly used, didn't consider PE for lateral lines because my Dad used it in the 60's for runs that wern't galvanized, we had some problems with the connections. It would seem like it should work it's just not common in my area, for PVC or PE I would sift the backfill if you have rocks, I know I did.

    Rancher
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2007
  20. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    I used PE years ago in Michigan for laterals from well to house. Never had any problem except for on Concentric pipe. If you didn't prop the pipe up where it went over the Male Adaptor, it could settle with the trench and split at the metal. PE is much more flexible than PVC and does have less friction loss as far as fittings are concerned. It also comes in a roll and is easy to put into a trench.

    bob...
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