DWV Piping Dilemma from Adding wall-mounted toilet on one side of back to back setup

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by DIY_Steve, Nov 26, 2012.

  1. DIY_Steve

    DIY_Steve New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Hello everyone,

    I'm getting into a remodel of our small master bath in our 5br/3ba home. The master bath is very small so we have decided that a wall mounted toilet would really benefit the small space with the extra room it frees up. We selected a geberit carrier and duravit toilet but thankfully haven't ordered them yet. I have completed the demolition and discovered I have a couple of problems:

    1. There is a 4" CI vent that runs vertically through the wall right where the carrier should go. Connected to this 4" vent are all three bathrooms, so that is 3 toilets, 2 showers, one shower/bathtub, and three sinks. My first thought was no problem, I will just add a sanitary tee or wye that routes the vent stack around the carrier and picks up all of the other vents in the process. This would have been great except for the next problem:

    2. The other bathroom on the main floor is right through the wall from the master bath, so that the two existing floor-mounted toilets are back to back and connect into a 4x4x4x4" double sanitary tee below the floor. The top of this tee is the 4" vent stack. So if there was such a fitting as a 4x4x4 "ninetytee" where the two side inlets were offset 90 degrees instead of 180 degrees I could solve this problem again by routing the vent stack off to the side of the carrier, but as far as I know no such fitting exists?

    So I have come up with a couple of brainstorm solutions but I don't know if products exist. Your help with these possible solutions or any others you may have would be much appreciated:

    Brainstorm solution 1: If such a thing exists (google doesn't seem to think so) I would put a carrier in the wall that serves a toilet on both sides of the wall off the one tank. Downside here is I have to buy another wall mount toilet, and I don't know if one tank can flush two toilets without problems? Does code even allow it? Am I missing any other problems this would create?

    Brainstorm solution 2: I could replace the 4x4x4x4 Double Sanitary Tee with a 4x4x4x2 Sanitary Tee With Right Side Inlet and then route the 2" Side Inlet up and around the carrier as the new vent pipe. Questions here is if the 2" vent pipe is big enough for the two toilets on the main floor and the third directly below in the basement? I could run some of the other sink and shower vents through the roof or attic independently if necessary rather than joining them all back into one like they are now. If I use the long radius elbows on the 2" vent pipe does it still serve its function okay? Does code allow this sort of alteration?

    Brainstorm solution 3: I spotted this fitting called a Vented Closet Tee - Right - With 2" Top Vent. It looks like if I could bring the floor toilet into the side and the wall toilet in from the top and then route the vent around the wall carrier this might work. Not sure if there is enough space between my joists to do this (about 14")? Why are some of the closet tees baffled and some not? Does code allow?

    Any other solutions I haven't thought of???

    Thanks in advance!
    DIY_Steve
  2. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,056
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    You are really trying to do something you do not have the experience to do.
    1. If it were even possible to have one tank for two toilets, it would need to be double the water capacity because BOTH toilets would have to flush at the same time.
    2. Taking the vent off the side of a tee and then having the wall hung toilet flush past it would violate every code and principle of plumbing.
    3. I do not remember ever seeing a baffled closet tee, other than with a So-Vent system. The closet tee you are referring to is the way to flush one toilet past others on a lower level, but it usually means the lower one will be offset about 5" from the centerline of the stack. I have never seen or worked on an actual Gerberit wall hung, but most of them have the tank in the wall so your pipes would have to offset around it.
  3. DIY_Steve

    DIY_Steve New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Hello HJ and thank you so much for your input. See below for a few specific follow on comments/questions.

    "You are really trying to do something you do not have the experience to do. "
    You are right about this, thats why I'm on this forum asking questions :)

    "1. If it were even possible to have one tank for two toilets, it would need to be double the water capacity because BOTH toilets would have to flush at the same time."

    This is what I figured so I will scratch this idea - too expensive anyways...

    "2. Taking the vent off the side of a tee and then having the wall hung toilet flush past it would violate every code and principle of plumbing."

    So why is this, does the vent always have to be completely above where the toilet flushes past? If its not above what is the problem that occurs?

    "3. I do not remember ever seeing a baffled closet tee, other than with a So-Vent system. The closet tee you are referring to is the way to flush one toilet past others on a lower level, but it usually means the lower one will be offset about 5" from the centerline of the stack. I have never seen or worked on an actual Gerberit wall hung, but most of them have the tank in the wall so your pipes would have to offset around it."

    I was looking at the Charlotte Pipe PN463 but I see now that only the cross has the baffle which makes sense, the Right Closet Tee PN 457 is what I'm thinking of. The way the Geberit works is it flushes into a downward 90 so its sort of on an upper level compared to the floor mount toilet in the other bathroom but only by about 12". Thats why I'm thinking that if the wall toilet comes into the top of the closet tee and the floor toilet comes into the side, and I route the 2" top vent upward through the roof, this setup might work? What do you think?

    Thanks!
    DIY_Steve
  4. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,056
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    The water flowing past it, negates the vent and makes it useless.

    The 457 is the proper fitting, but technically, if you just turn the Gerberit down into the top of it, the inspector may not consider the wall hung toilet to be vented. You also have to figure out how to get the floor mounted toilet's opening back where it is now.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2012
  5. DIY_Steve

    DIY_Steve New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Great thanks again for your input hj I really appreciate it! So I understand on the side inlet fittings why they don't work for a vent, probably why they are named side inlet not top vent after all!

    So I do understand that the floor toilet which is lined up on the CL of the cross will now have to line up with the new CL of the closet tee. It looks to me like I can solve this with a 22.5 fitting on the closet tee inlet and then turning the flange under the floor toilet to line up. Luckily where this all sits in the joists there is room to do it. Does this solution make sense, do you think it will work? Am I missing anything here?

    My next question is then if I get my closet tee in the no hub CI configuration (they are only available in CI as far as I can tell) and put it inside the existing bell on the existing drain pipe that is under the sanitary cross that I will replace, is that possible? ie will the existing fitting come out okay without damaging the existing pipe/bell? And then from there can I use ferncos off of the CI and go to ABS or PVC?

    Thanks in advance for your continued help! This one is pretty complicated so I may just have a pro plumber do it for me, but want to make sure I'm not "taken for a ride" in the process...
  6. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,056
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    You cut the existing cross out and replace it with the 457, then make your connections to it as necessary. IT can be a daunting task for a DIYer and HOW will you know if you are being taken for a ride, unless you get multiple estimates? You CANNOT use "Ferncos" as you are probably using the term for at least two reasons.
    1. They are not permitted INSIDE a building, and,
    2. The cast iron fitting is very heavy so you need connections that will stabilize it.
  7. DIY_Steve

    DIY_Steve New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Thanks again HJ for all your help.
    I will definitely get at least 3 quotes always do.
    I looked at the existing CI pipe and it goes into bell of the drain pipe that runs vertically down into the basement. The seal in the bell appears to be lead and from google it sounds like this is how they used to seal those (house was built in 1960). How do I ensure that the plumber protects our living space from lead contamination? Will they have to use lead for the new connection?
    Also since everything that will be changed will go vertically from the CI and the CI is already supported from below can't it become ABS or PVC with periodic support to framing?
    Final question - the other main floor bath was remodeled to a jetted tub about ~1970 and I see the Fernco style connections. Are you saying those are not to code? If so how should I retrofit to correct that?
    Thanks!
    Steve
  8. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,303
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Lead............
    It's been used for closet bends and joints over the years. Until the 80's we used 50% lead in our solder of copper water lines. It was used in paint until 1977.
    The dust from doing any remodel work is far, far worse then any lead you may encounter from a plumbing joint.

    If you have cast iron pipe above; that must be supported.
    Installing lighter pipe over cast is fine. The plastics hardly weigh anything. For instance, a 10 foot length of no-hub cast iron is 110 pounds. That's heavy.

    Building a waste and vent system from the basement, you will need to carry your vents upward toward the roof, and penetrate there.
  9. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,056
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    There will be absolutely NO contamination from the lead the plumbers use. In my opinion, there is also none from the lead in the solder we used to use, but it makes a good way to create hysteria and charge a lot of money to remove it. Besides, if it were not for an occassional "campaign" Ralph Nader and his gang would have to get real jobs.
  10. DIY_Steve

    DIY_Steve New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    HJ and Terry,
    Thanks for all your help. I ended up getting a few opinions on this from pro plumbers and the consensus was that the simpler solution would be to go into the basement wall and wye out two seperate lines for the toilets and vent them independently. The closet flange was going to sit too high and require work in the basement anyways to lower it sufficiently. So with relatives coming for the holidays I didn't want to open up another area of the house, and their estimates wiped out my budget, so I decided to just get a compact floor mounted toilet instead. When I remodel the basement bathroom and can still think about making the upgrade.
    Anyways thanks for all your help I really appreciate it.
    Steve
  11. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    Just FYI...Fernco is a manufacturer. The term "Fernco" is used interchangeably to describe any of their products. The solid rubber connectors, with 1/2" wide screw clamp at each end...are the ones NOT allowed above ground, as they do not provide mechanical stability or protection against "punch thru" of an auger tip. The ones which have a full length band clamped around the rubber internal , those are allowed. For CI, you still have to worry about stabilizing the weight in some cases.
  12. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,056
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    quote; he term "Fernco" is used interchangeably to describe any of their products.

    The way the average person uses the term "Fernco" is as a generic reference to the "all rubber with two clamps" made by Fernco and several other manufacturers, (and Fernco is NOT happy about it being used that way since it is a copyrighted name), which is why I speciifed "as you use the term".
  13. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,268
    Location:
    Maine
    It's amazing how little trust and faith the public has for us and our profession. " taken for a ride " indeed. I've been in business for 39 years now and have never taken anyone for a ride. I can't count how many times I have read similar comments on DIY forums and it always amazes me that any professional would even bother to reply to someone with that little respect for a profession that has been responsible for the sanitary health and welfare of the general population for over a hundred years.
  14. mtcummins

    mtcummins In the Trades

    Messages:
    380
    Location:
    Pittsburgh PA
    It seems to me, that you might not have talked with enough people in your profession. I see people who have been taken for a ride by plumbers (and every other trade) all the time. You, as honest plumbers, should be glad when homeowners are looking out for that kind of crap. It makes you look good, and your unethical competition look bad. And the customer actually cares enough about the work you do to research and ask these questions. I consider that respect of the profession, but a very healthy and justified fear of being taken advantage of by one of the many unethical people who do work in it.
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