Drake repeated filling... out of ideas

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quarry23

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Hi all,

I'm kinda new to DIY. Hoping for another opinion on this... or maybe some clarification on how things should work.

I have a Toto Drake that was installed in early 2007. Worked flawlessly for six years, at which point, it started losing water somehow, resulting in it filling up for a few seconds many times a day. After some research (mostly from this forum - thanks!), I learned that either the fill valve or the flapper was likely to be the culprit.

I started with the fill valve (a Korky 528T replacement), and installed it in early 2013. I was very proud of my new DIY skills, and even more pleased that it seemed to fix the issue... for about six months. Then the on/off filling started again. Ugh.

Thinking maybe I did something wrong, I decided to try again, this time with just the valvecap. Cleaning it didn't help, so I replaced the assembly (Korky again). Not surprisingly, this made no difference. I moved on to the flapper.

Like the fill valve, the Korky flapper replacement worked for a few months. I lost faith in my DIYing, and called a plumber. Obviously, he would know more about this than I would, and I had had enough of random parts replacement and just wanted the incessant filling fixed.

He came in, immediately told me that the Toto/Korky parts were garbage, and put in a FluidMaster fill valve (PRO45). I would have accepted his claim had it worked. But, exactly like the Korky replacement, it worked for a few months, and then the filling started again.

Over 18 months later, I'm out of ideas, and a bit frustrated. I understand that parts wear out and need to be replaced periodically, but it kind of feels like I'm missing something. Or maybe these things really do just have a much shorter lifespan than I expected...

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Kari
 

WJcandee

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What you're missing is that it isn't the fill valve. It's the flapper.

I deleted my vitriol at your plumber for the moment. Let's see if we can't get you going again.

The Korky parts are fine. Terry uses them. Some old-timers swear by the Made In Mexico Fluidmaster. Good for them. Others like the Korky, particularly because it's easy for DIYers to install themselves. I have seven toilets in our old house, and every one (from a 1927 model to a recent Toto) now sports the proper Korky 528 fill valve, and they have worked flawlessly for years.

Let's review. The problem is that your toilet is "losing water somehow". Water comes IN the fill valve and goes OUT the flush valve, i.e. past the flapper. The reason the toilet "runs" is that water begins to run past the flapper as the rubber on the flapper ages. It dribbles into the toilet slowly. The excess water in the bowl just runs over the weir of the toilet without "flushing", usually, and you don't really notice it.

Because little bits of water are running out, the tank level slowly falls. When it falls enough, it activates the fill valve for a couple of seconds so it can top the tank back up. That's why it runs. The fill valve is working properly. If it weren't, you would see the water overflowing the top of the flush valve, the part we call the "overflow riser". It's the vertical tube that rises from the flush valve, into which you have connected the refill hose.

It's quite common for people to think that their fill valve is defective when they keep hearing the toilet running. Makes sense: that's the part that is running. But once you understand how a toilet works, you quickly realize that the vast majority of the time, the fill valve is working properly, refilling the toilet because water is slowly running out of it. And the flapper is almost always the culprit. I suspect that tens of thousands of fill valves sold each year in this country are used to replace perfectly-good fill valves.

Like the perfectly-good 528T your so-called plumber charged you to replace.

Let's check and ensure that your problem is likely the flush valve, and most probably the flapper. Go and mark the water level of the tank with a pencil. Now turn the water to the toilet off all the way at the wall valve. (Turn right, clockwise, to shut off.) Leave the thing overnight, or at least a couple of hours. If the water level drops, it's (most likely) the flush valve.

Flappers do wear out. Six years is a good run. But flapper life varies dramatically based on water characteristics, like whether your municipal water is chlorinated. One thing that affects them, too, is whether you use a chlorine bowl cleaner in the tank, and, if so, whether the toilet ever sits for more than 12 hours without flushing (so the chlorine concentration increases as time goes on). Don't know if you use one, but it will shorten your flapper life.

If in fact you have a leak, do this. Go get this one at Home Depot (or many hardware stores or online sources) :
083819a7-b5fd-4696-a9a6-bc952d12438d_1000.jpg


Click this link to find it at HD: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Korky-3-in-Toilet-Tank-Flapper-for-TOTO-G-Max-2021CM/202666003

Or, get this one at Home Depot or the other sources:
9af0c0ce-cbd2-4663-bad2-52f9eb33e943_400.jpg

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Korky-3-in-Toilet-Tank-Flapper-for-TOTO-2023BP/205213624

I have the first flapper above in our Drakes, and it works great. However, the second flapper, which is Korky's newest for Toto, is a little stiffer and might last a bit longer in your application. It's worth a try. It says Toto on it, but it, like a lot of Toto's hardware, is made by Korky.

I'm not going to rip on your plumber, but let me politely say that you should use these flappers and ignore the stupid stuff he told you. After all, he charged you for a fill valve you didn't need, and didn't fix your problem. He may also have put in the wrong fill valve, one that won't properly refill your toilet bowl, but we can deal with that after we fix this.

After you get the new flapper, turn off the water, flush the toilet, and remove the old flapper. Now get yourself a piece of Brillo or similar and scrub the circular area of the flush valve where the flapper met the flush valve. We call that the flush valve "seat". You don't have to scrub it to death, just give it a cleaning. Sometimes, gunk forms on there and lifts the flapper a smidge off the seat, leading to leaks. Now follow Korky's installation instructions. They have excellent videos and stuff on their web site if you need guidance.

Caution: when you set the chain length on the flapper, make sure that it's tight enough to reliably pull the chain into position, but NOT SO TIGHT that sometimes the chain holds the flapper imperceptably off the seat. That happens to people's installations sometimes, and then they wonder why it's leaking. Optimally, you have one link laying flat on the top of the flapper when everything is at rest. If you give it too much chain, it won't pull into flush position reliably, and also you run the risk that some chain can get caught under the lip of the flapper, also holding it off the seat. So one link at rest, two at most.

This should solve your problem. If it doesn't, come back and we'll do some advanced diagnosis. But this should do it. And if it recurs in a couple of months, come on back and we'll do some advanced diagnosis.

A few other thoughts:

If you put the 528T in yourself, you probably properly positioned the refill hose above the lip of the overflow riser, and didn't just shove it down in there. Correct? (Sticking the refill tube down the overflow riser is the other primary way that water can leave the toilet; it gets siphoned out through the fill valve.) If you did it right, then there's no issue. I assume the end of the refill tube is still daylighted above the lip of the overflow riser, and that the tank water is adjusted to shut off 1/4" to 1/2" below the lip of the overflow riser. Correct again?

There is a small chance the that overflow riser is cracked. I have helped diagnose this several times on the forum from looking at pictures, but it's rare. Sometimes, one can find a vertical crack starting at the top of the riser and running down it to some level below the water level. Water seeps through the crack and causes refilling. Usually, it's more dramatic than that, though, so I doubt this is your problem. You can check by pulling the clip for the refill hose off the overflow riser and pinching the riser to ensure that it is solid. This usually happens because the older thicker metal clips can sometimes crack the riser when they are installed or changed. Again, it's rare, but if it happens, it often starts under the clip.

Please update us as to your progress, and we will work with you until the problem is fixed once and for all.

The diagram of the toilet below has a different type of fill valve than yours, the old float-ball ballcock, and it calls the overflow riser the "refill tube". But it's otherwise a good and accurate diagram of what you have. You can see where the "weir" is on the toilet, which is important. You can see how if you add a little bit of water slowly to the bowl, the water level will start to rise and just dribble over the wier. However, when you flush, a lot of water runs into the bowl at once, and a bunch of it goes over the weir at once, filling the trapway and starting a siphon, which sucks the contents of the bowl out, through the trapway, and out the outlet into the drain system. You may be surprised to know that flushes in gravity toilets don't really "push" the stuff out of the toilet; the rush of water starts a siphon which "sucks" the contents of the bowl out of the toilet. That's why trapway design is so important, and Toto's is among the best in the business.

toilet%20diagram.jpg
 
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quarry23

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Hi wjcandee,

Thanks so much for the detailed (and fast!) reply.

I will try the flapper replacement. It was actually one of the steps I tried over the past year, between the fill valve and calling the plumber, but I didn't see any lasting results. I did the "pencil marking" experiment and I don't remember losing any water, but I figured I should be thorough and replaced it anyway. What I *didn't* do was the Brillo pad seating of the flapper. Your suggestion to do that makes sense - going to check the pencil mark level again and will do a proper seating this time.

Puttin' my DIY hat on again to give this another go! Will report back once I have more information.

Thanks again. :)

Kari
 

Jadnashua

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If you use any of those cleaner tablets IN the tank, your flapper valve will NOT last very long. Toto does NOT recommend them. There is one, if you insist, that goes in line with the toilet overflow tube and dumps it down there to add the cleaner the tank. Those can work.
 

WJcandee

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Glad to help, Kari.

However, we may need some more info to help you. You have experienced the toilet "running". If it didn't fail the pencil-line test, which test would show that water is running out of the tank, then if the fill valve is opening, it should cause water to overfill the tank and cause water to go down the overflow tube. The water level would be at or above the top of the overflow tube, not 1/4 to 1/2 inch below it. If THIS is what is happening, you're getting overflow, then it isn't the flapper, and I would guess too-high water pressure leaking through the fill valve. But that doesn't sound like the toilet running, usually. We can walk you through that, but that's rarer than just the flapper wearing out or not sealing properly due to gunk or something else.

I really think that if you do the pencil test and leave it overnight (assuming that you are currently experiencing the running), you should find a lower tank. If the problem is intermittent, then the water level in the tank is going to be lower only intermittently -- consistent with how often you are experiencing the running.

Make sure the water is fully-off at the wall, so the thing can't refill. Then make your pencil line. Then leave it overnight. You should see a water level loss in the tank. The other way to do this test is to put some food dye in the tank and see if your bowl has dye in it in the morning. That would indicate flow from the tank to the bowl as well. I like the pencil test better, but it doesn't work unless the water is all the way off at the wall...

And that post is going to end up being my White Paper on leaky toilets. I think I will refer others to it from now on when they have problems like yours.
 

Wallijonn

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... it seemed to fix the issue... for about six months. Then the on/off filling started again.

First thing to do is to feel the underside of the flapper. Turn off the water, flush, flip up the flapper, feel the underside. If it feels "slimey" then you have to remove the slime from it and it's mating surface. Might as well use some dish washing detergent on a small bath cloth too clean it. (You don't want to scratch any of the surfaces.) If it feels as if it has many little "bumps" (small blisters) then it's time to replace. Usually it's the slime that causes the problem - think bowl ring, or the slime you get in your kitchen sink drain.

So, yeah, having to clean the flapper ball every six months doesn't sound unreasonable.
 

quarry23

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First, thank you for all the input thus far. I appreciate all the help and time you've taken to walk me through this. :)

A few updates on this:

1) I ordered a new flapper. They're not super available where I am, so I ordered this one:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_125475-868-2021PK_0__?productId=3158683

Should be here sometime this week.

2) While I've been waiting for it to arrive, I did the pencil test. Turned the water off at the wall and let it sit overnight. The water level dropped about an inch! wjcandee, this certainly fits with your theory. I also scrubbed the existing flapper to see if the seating was an issue. Wallijonn, I suppose it did feel a bit slimy (not blistered though). I used a scrub pad (like one you would use to clean a stovetop) to clean the flush valve ring. It didn't seem to help, so I'll wait for the new one.

3) jadnashua, you asked about cleaning tablets in the tank. I don't use anything in the tank for cleaning - just the water in there. I'm not sure if it's related, but the existing flapper (the one that's been in there for six or so months) isn't bright red anymore. It's kind of a washed out red now. Not sure if this is normal.

4) The one I'm using now (replacement for the original) may not have been an ideal fit: http://www.homedepot.ca/product/replacement-toilet-flapper-fits-toto-3-red-g-max-thu175s/807428

The description said it fit, but it looks different from the original one, and also different from the new one I ordered. So hopefully the new one is better. I will install it when it arrives - making sure to seat it properly - and report back with my findings.

Enjoy the rest of the weekend!
 
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Jadnashua

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Some water utilities use a fairly high concentration of cholomine (sp?) in the water. This can attack rubber parts...it's better than chlorine, but not much. That will affect the life of any rubber parts.
 

Wallijonn

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quarry,

Hopefully the flapper instructions will say what hole the chain goes through (left, middle or right). They do have different actions, allowing more or less water to go through. I believe Toto is going to a more universal flapper, iirc.

wjcandee said:
I suspect that tens of thousands of fill valves sold each year in this country are used to replace perfectly-good fill valves.

Saw it on an episode of 'This Old House'. The whole toilet was replaced (probably because it was so old that it was using 3.5gpf, or more! of water and if you're going to pay a plumber hundreds of dollars you might as well upgrade to the latest and greatest.) But while watching it I wondered why he didn't just replace the flapper?

Same thing goes for when he replaced a mixing valve on a bathroom shower. I can see the mineral buildup on the threads. Why wasn't it cleaned off and why wasn't plumber's silicon not put on the threads to prevent mineral buildup?

This past week another toilet was replaced and I wondered, "Why didn't he replace the water shut off valve with a 1/4 turn valve while he had the toilet off?" The thing looked like it was over 30 years old. The old toilet had the metal fill valve, a brass over flow tube and the old brass rod and hard rubber float ball. Okay, I can see that it's a 3.5gpf toilet. But then he installed a Glacier Bay toilet! Groan. (They do make one good one - the standard height one with the flowing bowl trap way. But still...) I also wondered why he didn't wipe off the old wax seal before installing a new wax seal? It was a quick job because a rag wasn't stuffed into the toilet outlet. But he did mention not to drop the flange bolts down the hole. I just wondered why he didn't use the shorter and thicker flange bolts? So out came the mini hack saw to cut them down to size... He did mention how to correctly position the plastic washer before covering it with the metal washer and tightening down the hold down nuts, so 1 point for that.

BTW, I think I saw Toto Drakes in the movie "Wolf of Wall Street". ;-)
 
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quarry23

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My new flapper has arrived. My level of sucess has been... well, debatable...

Contrary to my initial impression, is almost exactly the same as the current one. I figured this had to be a good start. I installed the new one without issue. I did a proper scrub and paid attention to the chain length.

Within a few minutes with the new flapper, it started refilling again. I could actually see the water disappearing - and hear it leaking out if I listened carefully. I put my ear right near the water. For research purposes. :) Every fifteen minutes, it would repeat the leak-refill routine.

After two hours of this, I put the old flapper back in... back to refilling every few hours.

A few days later, I tried the new flapper again. It was better this time. Not perfect, but certainly not doing the refill dance with repeat performances every fifteen minutes. I'm not sure why it was different this time, but whatever. The thing is, it's now doing the same thing as the old flapper was. That is, refilling every few hours.

So, what the heck. Is it possible it's leaking from somewhere other than the flapper and the fill valve? I've now replaced each of them several times without success. With all the water I'm wasting and the parts I'm contributing to the local landfills, I feel like a "most wanted" target on the environmental advocates watch list. :p
 

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How about a picture of the inside of your tank?

fm_fillvalve_siphon.jpg


To determine if it's the flapper, turn off the water to the tank and see if the level drops.

Also check to make sure that the fill tube is not too far down into the overflow tube. Doing this can siphon water from the tank.
 

WJcandee

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Also, check the chain length you are giving the new flapper. It should have like one link of chain resting on top of the flapper when at rest. Too tight, and it holds the flapper off the seat. Also check the seat, not just the flapper. You can scrub with brillo. If necessary, you can replace the flush valve with the Korky adjustable 3" flush valve kit. Good quality and easy to do. It can't be anything else: chain, flapper, siphoning due to refill hose position, flush valve. (You could also have a crack in the flush valve itself, but that's rarer.)

If you can, shoot us a photo of the tank interior as you have it now. I once diagnosed a flush valve crack from such a photo.
 

Jadnashua

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Another possibility if it is a tw0-piece toilet...on most, there's a big nut on the bottom of the tank that seals the whole flapper valve assembly to the tank. If that gasket is bad or the nut is not tight enough, water can leak out from underneath the valve and in most cases, just go into the bowl, not elsewhere. On a newer toilet, rarely, that surface where the valve seals to the porcelain is rough. A couple of swipes with some fine sand paper can smooth it, making it easier to get a good seal. Course, there could be a small crack, but those are not as common.
 

quarry23

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Hi all,

I've attached a few pictures:

Inside the tank, the refill tube, and the water level before and after an overnight shutoff. It dropped over an inch overnight.

The fill tube sits about 3/4" above the overflow pipe. I haven't seen any water getting sucked out of it. The chain has a bit of slack; the flapper comes up all the way when I flush, and sits flat on the flush valve otherwise. I've scrubbed both flapper and flush valve - both feel smooth to me.

Parts I've gone through:

4 fill valves - the original Toto one, 2 x Korky 528T, and the current FluidMaster Pro
3 flappers - the original Toto one, JAG replacement for Toto red GMAX, and the current Korky 2021

I've not replaced the flush valve. Does that seem like a reasonable next step?

Thanks. :)
 

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Reach4

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I've not replaced the flush valve. Does that seem like a reasonable next step?
Yes. You can try a repair kit which glues in over the existing seat, or you can do a complete flush valve replacement where you pull the tank and replace the existing flush valve.
 

WJcandee

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The setup looks pretty good. Terry is kidding about replacing the tank. There's no reason to do that. I would squeeze the top of the overflow riser and see if it doesn't reveal a small vertical crack starting at the top of the riser, perhaps underneath the clip on which the refill hose was mounted. If so, then there's your answer and you just need to change the flush valve. I would probably go ahead and try that next anyway. The Korky 5030BP is what you want. Easy to install and adjust. You can just google it if your local store doesn't have it. I'm not sure why you went through two Korky 528Ts, since your problem was not the fill valve. But whatever.

Anyway, to me it looks like there is a vertical crack in the overflow riser based on the photo. It's a little hard to tell whether that's just rust or actually a crack, but it is interesting that the bottom of the crack seems to be where your water level fell to. I don't know. Even if it's water leaking past the flapper then the new flush valve should solve the problem.
 

Wallijonn

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wjcandee,

You definitely have eagle eyes. :clap: Yep, I'd definitely replace the flush valve.
https://terrylove.com/pdf/cst743s.pdf

THU129W-A (#5 in the diagram). Google the part number, as usual.

water level after flush.jpg


See the water stain on the inside?

Also replace the spud gasket, 9BU024E, #11 in the diagram.
 
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WJcandee

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I have used that Korky 3" flush valve kit, and it's great. Also includes a suitable gasket. But Wallijohn is right that Toto can send you a new flush valve and new spud gasket if you call them.
 

quarry23

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Finally... got my flush valve kit, and new gasket. Replaced both the other day. And no refilling since!

Thanks again for all the help with this, guys! Appreciate the input. :)

Kari
 
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