Double Combo Wye / Double Sanitary Tee / ??

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by Jim__R, Apr 22, 2014.

  1. Jim__R

    Jim__R New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Pa
    IMG_20140401_223250_522.jpg

    1-IMG_20140315_100854_785.jpg

    Sorry so many pics..can't edit out the dups :) Old Story short..doing some updates..The tub/shower to the left of T wash basin to the right.. Wrong T right ? The direction (2nd pic from the top is better) is messed up..
    The Bright red C.I. Starts at the toilet 12 ft away where the connection is made to the T..
    So the question is Double Combo Wye / Double Sanitary Tee / ??
    BTW There is NO vent stack until the end of C.I. Run where it meets the main stack..so I'm going to put a 20 dfu AAV at the highest point which will behind the wash basin.. OK ..Let me have it I have tough skin!!
    jim
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 2, 2014
  2. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,242
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Neither. Tear it out and start over. To misquote Shakespeare, "It is a job done by an idiot".
  3. Jim__R

    Jim__R New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Pa
    Well Thanks all for advice ..with the wealth of knowledge gained here I'll be steamrolling ahead on this project ! Definately go to the top DIY forum in my bookmarks !
  4. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,242
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    quote; Well Thanks all for advice ..with the wealth of knowledge gained here I'll be steamrolling ahead on this project ! Definately go to the top DIY forum in my bookmarks !

    Is that sarcasm because you expected us to draw you a new design, or a sincere comment because now you know not to try to make that thing work? Because if it is sarcasm, then I will also tell you to get rid of that "vent tee" and install a "Y" or combo, which will make your "steamroller" work harder.
  5. Jim__R

    Jim__R New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Pa
    Always good to get Professional advice from a forum Moderator and Licensed Master Plumber with over 25,000 posts ..How can I go wrong !! Thanks you for your guidance.. I will revisit when to balance my 40 year steam boiler/2 pipe cast iron radiators system as its short cycling ..the vaporstat may need adjustments.. perhaps the traps I didn't change but i think its a pipe thread leaking ..perhaps a radiator control valve ??... but its good to know you're here to help the community ...Steamrolling ahead ..Kudos

    jim
  6. asktom

    asktom Member

    Messages:
    589
    Location:
    Victor, MT
    "OK ..Let me have it I have tough skin!!"

    HJ was telling the truth when he said neither the double wye with 1/8 bends nor double san tee is correct. Your arrangement is dramatically wrong from the red cast iron san tap tee on its back on up. If you want it right you have a big job that starts by cutting out a section of cast iron and ripping out a bunch of copper. If you don't want it THAT right, use the double wye. It is a bad location for an AAV because of the toilet location which may cause positive pressure which the AAV does not protect against, but you will probably be OK because it is a 4" line and the toilet can vent along the top of the pipe. But, maybe not.
  7. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,413
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    I hadn't commented before but thought that hj was correct.

    If you intend to do it right, it needs that section cut out and redone.
    The fitting on the bright red cast iron is wrong. That should be a wye fitting.
    Both the tub and the washer need to be vented before hitting the main line.
    You can run the tub vent up to the next wall and revent at 42" to the washer basin (lav) vent.
    Or you can wet vent the tub with the lav, if you run the lav at 2"
  8. asktom

    asktom Member

    Messages:
    589
    Location:
    Victor, MT
    Tying in the tub and lav using the correct fittings will mean that it also becomes a wet vent for the toilet and needs to be sized accordingly, unless the toilet vent is taken off separately before that point.
  9. Jim__R

    Jim__R New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Pa
    Ok....the tough skin is a issue I have .. all the waste pipes.. have been here long before the 30 + years that I've been living here ...
    The house was built in the 20's and use to drain to a septic tank from what I gather.. SO I DIDN'T INSTALL this system..trying to figure out how to FIXIT .
    This may help as we are familiar with the T by now the T hub is 10" long and level.. 1-Run1.jpg and The beginning Toilet1.jpg
  10. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,313
    Location:
    New England
    What was done nearly 100-years ago was built to much older codes, if codes even existed in your area or were enforced. FWIW, any run needs a minimum slope, or it will have problems. All fixtures need to be vented (with a few special exceptions) individually. Newer fixtures generally use less water and move things faster to compensate for the long, slow drain of things (especially toilets an old one might have drained 10-gallons with each flush, a new one can be as little as 0.8g). So, to keep things working with modern fixtures can mean you need to bite the bullet, and do it right based on what has been learned in those last 100-years.

    FWIW, any copper you cut out, take to your local recycler - it's worth some major money, don't just trash it. CI is still the premium drain material (galvanized steel should never have been introduced!). Changing CI to something like PVC or ABS (depending on what's available in your area) will be faster and less expensive, but drain sounds you never heard are likely to become a common occurrence, and maybe an annoyance. New CI is usually done with hubless fittings, so no lead, no oakum (but it's still needed with old stuff without more drastic operations) and is fast and reliable. Cutting old CI can be problematic sometimes - it can shatter, especially if the snap cutter is dull. Cutting it with a saw can be done, but you may need a few saw blades.
  11. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,973
    Location:
    New York, NY
    I have a more fundamental question. You have lived there 30 years and this was obviously done before that. It wouldn't meet current code, and may or may not have met the code at the time. Okay, swell.

    But what issue is it that you want to address? Just because it's "wrong" doesn't mean it needs to be fixed if it is doing the job today. If it is doing the job, I'm not sure why one would want to mess with it.
  12. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,242
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    One reason is that, while it might never happen, if the short stub ever got plugged up there is absolutely no way to unplug it.
  13. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,413
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    And then you would cut it out. :)
    Don't cover any of that stuff up.
  14. Jim__R

    Jim__R New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Pa
    Love it..Why now ? Changing a faucet ..a nice old shelf back circa '51 ..didn't like the S trap going directly under the sink into the copper..started snooping..didn't like the T ..and so on..

    BUT why does the C.I. have to be cut-out is what I dont understand and where ?

    I have a latex disposable glove covering the original Sink drain secured with a nut (at floor level)...when i run the shower I can see it " pulsate " trying to get air.. When I flush the toilet the glove doesnt even flutter..meaning to me the toilet I guess is being handle by the main

    I guess I'm just not getting it...But thanks..I'll reread more tomorrow..
  15. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,309
    Location:
    Maine
    What you have there is proof that just because it was installed decades ago doesn't make it right and now you get all sarcastic and pissy when you ate told to tear it all out and do it right. Yep, it's Ben working all that time so either do it right or spray some of that stop leak in a can on it and wrap duct tape around it.
  16. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,242
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    quote; .when i run the shower I can see it " pulsate " trying to get air..

    It is NOT trying to "get air", the water from the shower is "rushing" across the tee, instead of dropping down into the main line, which causes a pressure buildup, and THAT is what is pulsing the rubber glove.
  17. asktom

    asktom Member

    Messages:
    589
    Location:
    Victor, MT
    "BUT why does the C.I. have to be cut-out is what I dont understand and where ? "

    If you want to make it code, the CI needs to be cut because the threaded tee is both the wrong fitting and the inlet is too small (should be 2"). So, that needs to go. There may be a different spot you could tie in the tub & lav that would be easier. I can't tell from the pictures. If so, you could cut out the copper drain, put a CO plug in the tee and hook up at that easier location. Wherever that might be, you would probably need to cut the pipe there. No easy fix here. Also, I still don't see where the toilet is vented and you need to tie in downstream from that vent.

    Also, the glove is bouncing from positive pressure, as HJ noted, and an AAV will do nothing to help that.
  18. Jim__R

    Jim__R New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Pa
    Alot of good feedback (positive and negative )..Have some CI experience ( little but the basics) I have a few ideas in my head now that I've been given well thought out and Appreciated replies and direction from experienced ,professionals .. I do take this serious or I wouldn't be seeking advice...as "there is no problem greater than the solution"
    Thanks,
    Jim
    (don't worry I'm not finished yet ..Just want to take some timeout to Show my Respect to those deserving ! )
  19. asktom

    asktom Member

    Messages:
    589
    Location:
    Victor, MT
    Jim, I realize you aren't the idiot that put that in, but rather the guy trying to fix it. I suspect it is more skewed up than than you thought going into it. Also, where the heck is the toilet vent, anyway?
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
  20. Jim__R

    Jim__R New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Pa
    Toilet vent ?? Nothing back there other than a cleanout. The toilet is right in front of a sash window.. no neighbors/homes back then I guess ..so 50's add on , trouble is it (the bathroom) is more of a section of a enclosed Back porch that has 2 exterior walls,1 wall to a unheated room ,and the 4th wall is mostly doorway/radiator/kitchen and lots of wiring /cables etc in the remaining section of the wall.. No access to the "attic ? above" ..though eventually I guess I will have to put a attic access panel in..just never was on my "list" for some reason ? Haven't even got fresh gas for the lawns first cut of the season ..Just having fun as the project list keeps growing ..and the steamroller is getting low on steam ..

    Thanks
    jim



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