DIY Pump Install Questions.

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Ballvalve

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Only issue being that his pumping will have to pressurize the entire system before anything hits the tank, so might need a 800 pound gorilla or a 80 pound chinese slave to do that.

Second, won't an 85 gallon tank with a CSV keep the pump running about forever? Seems like he could lose the csv or change the tank.

Or could one add enough air to the tank so that it only takes on a few gallons of water?
 

Lobanz

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OK. I've been leaning toward poly pipe, but it might be cheaper for me to do PVC because poly pipe seems to only come in 100' and 300' rolls. My drop pipe will be about 125'-130' long. I can use 50' or so to run to the house, but don't need to run 200 PSI pipe to my irrigation. So I really don't have a use for about 1/3 of the 300' roll. Don't really want to have the poly drop pipe in 2 sections if I can avoid it. Any body have a source for a 200' roll of good 200 PSI poly drop pipe?

There also seems to be different grades of 200 PSI poly pipe (1.25"). Look at THIS (bottom of page) and THIS. One is $690 per 300' roll and one is $249 per 200' roll. Is there much difference between the two? I assume there is.
 

LLigetfa

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Only issue being that his pumping will have to pressurize the entire system before anything hits the tank, so might need a 800 pound gorilla or a 80 pound chinese slave to do that.

Second, won't an 85 gallon tank with a CSV keep the pump running about forever? Seems like he could lose the csv or change the tank.

Or could one add enough air to the tank so that it only takes on a few gallons of water?
I wondered about how the hand pump would work. I wonder why it would even be needed. In many cases municipal water comes from a water tower and as such water should still flow during a power outage at least until the tank is empty. After that, I'd rather have a genset to run the pump and whatever else.

Not sure about the logic of the 85 gallon tank either. Murphy conspires to kill the power just as the pump is about to kick-in so the drawdown may be minimal.
 

Lobanz

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Not sure about the logic of the 85 gallon tank either. Murphy conspires to kill the power just as the pump is about to kick-in so the drawdown may be minimal.

The tank is to mitigate frequent cycling when the demand is less than the CSV's min flow rate of 1 gpm. I have low flow drip irrigation, potentially leaky float valves on animal watering, etc. The large tank was suggested by the extremely helpful CSV folks.

I live in North Alabama and most of North Alabama was out of power for over a week after this year's April 27th storms knocked out a nuclear power plant. Large areas of North Alabama still have not fully recovered -- there are miles and miles of forest where almost every tree is laid flat on the ground. Water never went out in our area, but there were warnings to conserve. Water did go out in some places. We got by fine with a small borrowed gas generator and some kerosene cooking stoves. I now have a diesel generator with a big, full tank and a transfer switch with a 20 amp breaker waiting for the well pump to be installed. Call me paranoid, but in an extended outage situation, I don't ever want to be without water for my family and livestock.

Hand pumping into the pressure tank is much more convenient than pumping into a bucket and does not require any electricity (i.e., diesel fuel). If I just let a lot of air out of the pressure tank, I should be able to pump into it fine -- up to 5 GPM and 50 PSI according to the hand pump manufacturer. They have a longer 3' pump lever arm to make it easier.
 

Cacher_Chick

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Not all poly pipe is approved for potable water. You need to confirm it is approved unless it is for irrigation use only.
 
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Valveman

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Second, won't an 85 gallon tank with a CSV keep the pump running about forever? Seems like he could lose the csv or change the tank.

A CSV will work with any size tank, even a water tower. It doesn't have to be a small tank. With an 80 gallon tank, you simply set the CSV at 58 PSI when using a 40/60 pressure switch. That way the CSV only tops off the tank from 58 to 60 at 1 GPM, and doesn't take too long to fill a large tank.
 

LLigetfa

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LOL... ballvalve does like to exaggerate with an 85 gallon tank keeping the pump running about forever, but then the water tower analogy probably would keep the pump running about forever at 1 GPM. Of course I assume you would spec a different size CSV for the water tower.

My question was based on the fact that the 85 gallon tank with around 25 gallons of drawdown means that the constant pressure will be delayed by 25 gallons. I understand now that reduced cycling is the primary objective and not constant pressure.

To address ballvalve's logic, a trickle draw of 1/2 GPM will after 50 minutes from pump kick-out, turn on the pump and the pump would then run for 75 minutes, assuming no other water use in that 125 minute time frame. In the real world, there would likely be other water use, so that is worst case.
 

Lobanz

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My question was based on the fact that the 85 gallon tank with around 25 gallons of drawdown means that the constant pressure will be delayed by 25 gallons. I understand now that reduced cycling is the primary objective and not constant pressure.


Note that this is a 60/80 system with a 60 PSI pressure regulator after the tank so that there is constant pressure all the time.
 

Ballvalve

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Note that this is a 60/80 system with a 60 PSI pressure regulator after the tank so that there is constant pressure all the time.

To address ballvalve's logic, a trickle draw of 1/2 GPM will after 50 minutes from pump kick-out, turn on the pump and the pump would then run for 75 minutes, assuming no other water use in that 125 minute time frame. In the real world, there would likely be other water use, so that is worst case.

Thanks for clarifying my point. If so, thats a huge run time. And now we hear that there is a regulator, so the CSV has been fairly nullified, unless he has a lot of irrigation, it would seem.

160 psi pipe is plenty for your well, and you go to the mechanical supplier house who cuts off your footage for about 89 cents a foot.

You cant beat physics with a longer lever, but you can move the earth with a long enough one. Longer lever just means more time for your gorilla. But I agree its a good idea to have a source of water from a well in case of extended power outages.
Damn cheaper than a smelly gym and produces something.
 

Lobanz

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Thanks for clarifying my point. If so, thats a huge run time. And now we hear that there is a regulator, so the CSV has been fairly nullified, unless he has a lot of irrigation, it would seem.

Why does the pressure regulator after the tank nullify the CSV before the tank? The CSV still reduces cycling -- that's the only reason I have it in there. The CSV guys were happy with the diagram. Sure, it can be used to implement a constant pressure system, but it's still a "cycle stop valve". Am I misunderstanding something?


160 psi pipe is plenty for your well, and you go to the mechanical supplier house who cuts off your footage for about 89 cents a foot.

Very good. Poly seems simpler to install and remove. And safer than unscrewing the PVC sections -- more likely to drop the whole works down the well with PVC. Looks like 160 PSI is what is almost always used in my area -- no one local has or can even get 200 PSI poly.

Supplier said not to run poly underground. Not sure why. I would kind of like to run it underground because of better freeze protection than PVC. Any idea why he would say not to run poly underground from the well to the house underground? Was gonna use it for 500' of irrigation main line too (2 pastures, barn animal water and hydrants, large drip irrigated garden and green houses and eventually a small orchard, etc).

I do still want to use an 1/8" stainless safety cable. Where do I attach the safety cable at the top? Attach to the pitless somehow?
 

LLigetfa

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160 PSI poly is available in a variety of lengths. Around here most people direct bury poly pipe. PVC is not very popular. Most people drill a hole in the top of the casing and put in an eye bolt to secure the safety cable and the pitless release cable.
 

Lobanz

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To address ballvalve's logic, a trickle draw of 1/2 GPM will after 50 minutes from pump kick-out, turn on the pump and the pump would then run for 75 minutes, assuming no other water use in that 125 minute time frame. In the real world, there would likely be other water use, so that is worst case.

Thanks for clarifying my point. If so, thats a huge run time.

Also, look at THIS page from the CSV folks. It calculates that the pump will run 9 minutes at a time followed by 36 minutes of off time and it will do that 32 times a day if I leave the low flow stuff going all the time. Plenty enough time for pump cooling. And this is about the worst case for this design.

But even if the pump does run for 75 minutes at a time, is that really a problem? I don't think I have a problem with cooling flow -- the pump is shrouded so all the water is flowing past the pump. And I don't think I have a problem with minimum pump cooling run time -- 9 minutes should be way more than necessary. Are you worried about the pump overheating? Or bearings wearing out or something?

Perhaps there are real world practical issues that I can't see because I've never done any of this before.


CsvLowFlowRunTime.png
 

LLigetfa

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Are you worried about the pump overheating? Or bearings wearing out or something?

I am not worried about anything, just wanted to put worst case numbers to ballvalve's "running about forever" comment. As I said, the numbers are worst case and probably you will tweak the system to prevent that.

At 60/80 PSI, Boyle's law says the drawdown will be less than what I used in my calculations.

I'm guessing ballvalve may be concerned about energy consumption. I think your choice of Grundfos pump may draw less current when held back by the CSV than some other designs.
 

Lobanz

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I'm guessing ballvalve may be concerned about energy consumption. I think your choice of Grundfos pump may draw less current when held back by the CSV than some other designs.

Yes, that's the main reason I chose the Grundfos over a Franklin.

I thought about putting a bypass around the CSV with a ball valve in the bypass so that I could turn the CSV on and off. Then I could see which drew use more power. At some point, I may look at a battery bank for my generator (to use fuel more efficiently) in which case energy consumption may make a difference.

My understanding is that having the pump throttled by the CSV uses less power per unit time, but would use more power per gallon of water moved since I'm assuming the pump's amp drop is not at all linear. So if you are watching energy consumption carefully in an extended power outage, it may be better to bypass the CSV (or just turn the CSV pressure setting up over your cut out setting) and just let the pump cycle more. The large tank will help there too. As will lower pressure settings. The air in the tank is adjustable and so is the pressure switch and the CSV too. A little tweaking of the knobs can optimize the system for that scenario.
 

LLigetfa

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To address ballvalve's logic, a trickle draw of 1/2 GPM will after 50 minutes from pump kick-out, turn on the pump and the pump would then run for 75 minutes, assuming no other water use in that 125 minute time frame.

I take that back. My math was all wrong. Didn't calculate the GPM/pressure curve on the CSV. The table that Lobanz posted shows the real times.
 

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Or if you use 78 PSI for the setting of the CSV, you only have a 3 minute run time, as per the following chart. Also, 1" poly is all you need and will be much lighter and easier to grip.




A
 
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Ballvalve

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Not to start a csv debate, but that 700 starts with the 4 gallon tank is pretty scary. Doesnt that far exceed Franklins suggested starts per day or hour?

Would it mean that the guy with a bunch of leaks and drips should stay far from that small tank system, use the big tank? With the regulator, he lost the mainly constant pressure advantage, and might get only 36 or 40 starts a day without the csv.

"My" csv is presently running the pressure about 55 to 85 into plain tanks and then a Pr regulator around 55. Keeps the pump on during higher use. I know you don't much like that idea.

Seems like a bypass for winter in his case might pay back, save it for summer irrigation. And he should fix the leaks in any case.

The poly underground is fine.
 
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Valveman

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Well for one thing we wouldn’t set the pressure the same with a 4.4 gallon tank. As you can see from the following, setting the pressure correctly would get this worst case scenario down to the 300 starts per day recommended by most motor manufacturers. However, we state on all our instructions and literature that a larger tank is recommended if there are long-term uses of less than 1 GPM. This is why we recommended to Lobanz that he use an 80 gallon size tank, after he explained that he was unable to use more than 1 GPM for his drip irrigation.

We certainly don’t like a pressure regulator after the pressure tank. That keeps you at the low end of your pressure all the time, adds additional friction loss at high demand, and does nothing to reduce the number of cycles. But in a case where you need a large tank because of long-term use below 1 GPM, a pressure regulator after a CSV and pressure tank can serve a purpose. Staying at the low end of the pressure is at least constant pressure while waiting for the big tank to empty, to help with things like Instant Water Heaters.
 
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Lobanz

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We certainly don’t like a pressure regulator after the pressure tank. That keeps you at the low end of your pressure all the time, adds additional friction loss at high demand, and does nothing to reduce the number of cycles. But in a case where you need a large tank because of long-term use below 1 GPM, a pressure regulator after a CSV and pressure tank can serve a purpose. Staying at the low end of the pressure is at least constant pressure while waiting for the big tank to empty, to help with things like Instant Water Heaters.


I thought above 70 PSI or so was a little much for in the house. 60 PSI has been fine with us so far.

I have the 60 PSI pressure regulator now with utility water because my Dad's house was flooded when a utility water pressure surge burst his washing machine hoses and flooded his house for 2 weeks while he was on vacation. He came home to water flowing out his front door. Flooded his basement. House had to be gutted.
 

Ballvalve

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If i understand your earlier post, you are running on a generator [?] that would change all these equations. In such case spend 600 bucks on a 3000 gallon static tank, forget the hand pump and get it up high enough for gravity flow in a power outage. Fill the tank with a float valve at about 1/3 down. Now your pump will go full life. What you do after the tank is up for grabs.
 
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