DIY Again

[CodeOne]

Every one looks at things differently, sometimes its the way a person feels about it.

Making money or losing money are very different things sometimes.

Example a big corp may say they lost money this quarter, in effect what they are really saying we didnt make as much money as last quarter. And they still made a profit.

And it really dosent matter what anyone else thinks if you can justify it for youself, not go broke and feel good about yourself and have high self esteem, as long as you dont look down on others who think differently, And dont try to force their own opinion on someonelse. Life is to short for some of these arguments. They become redundant and a waist of time. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

We need to try to help one another, not hinder and tear down. Do no harm.

 

[99k]

I didn't say being a stay-at-home dad was a cop-out; I said your answer was a cop-out. Read my post again, before you jump down my throat.


YOUR TIME IS WORTH SOMETHING. I'm not talking about the time that you spend being a parent, of course that's worth something, but it's irrelevant to the topic: which is your house-building activity. I'm not talking about your parenting or housework - I'm talking about your other job: the time you spend designing & planning & doing the work on your house. If you were to spend that time doing something else, what would/could it bring in? Suppose you were to hire out as a carpenter, for example, or as a designer.

To get an accurate idea of how much you saved, you HAVE to substract that amount from your gross savings - to get your net savings.


And I also said, very clearly, that I'm sure you saved money. I'm just trying to get an accurate idea of what you saved. If you count your labor as free, that's not accurate.

Neither is lumping the money you made off market changes, as per your example. You need to compare what it actually cost you (including your time), to what it would have cost you to hire somebody. What you made off the housing market swings isn't relevant: that's profit, not wages. You would have made it even if you'd hired someone to do the work.

I agree Frenchie... you're spot on. This gentleman has a very good skill set and in my area a good handyman gets $60 - $75 /hr and has a backlog of work. I don't think you're picking on him but instead making a great point.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Nate R]

Frenchie's point is very valid. There are some things in which your time is worth something. If it costs me $40 to have my oil changed in my car, and I can do it myself for $16, but it takes me 3 hrs, I'm "paying myself" $8/hr to do the work myself.

Looking at things this way will sometimes show you things that just aren't worth wasting time doing. You don't know how much time you have left on earth.

 

[99k]

One great lesson in life that I never really grasped until my mid-forties was that it is better to try to make money instead of saving money. It is better to outsource something you are not proficient at and instead do an extra job in your specialty ... much less stress and a lot more progress. Don't get me wrong, I still DIY jobs ... this summer I installed an trimmed three new windows (I know my quality would probably exceed others) but I outsourced the roof (even though I could do it). Just my two cents

 

[Cookie]

To me it is better to save money, the money makes more money itself.

 

[Scuba_Dave]

Another words you still made money as you say due to your own work by not hiring a contractor?
The money you lost was apparently the money you would have made if the house had sold in a timely fashion?
So in essence you did ok because if you had hired a contractor or contractors you would have lost everything?
This way you still feel good about what you did and still did not lose it all.
Congrats keep it up.

Uh, the house was sold to ME to avoid foreclosure
I made a bundle
Contractors are a waste of time around here
At least until the economy took a dump
Now some of them are begging for jobs & offering great rates

I'm worth more then any contractor I've met
And I've saved at least $80k on this house alone by not hiring incompetent people who do not even show up

If I find a job that pays me over $100k a year maybe then I'll hire people
Oh, but they won't show up anyways

 

[Nate R]

If I find a job that pays me over $100k a year maybe then I'll hire people
Oh, but they won't show up anyways

My in-laws just did this for their kitchen remodel. Went terribly, horribly wrong at almost every turn. Having HD install anything is obviously a bad idea. But the independent flooring place did a crappy install, and there were countless other examples. Hiring out can sometimes be a nightmare, too. I'm shocked no one has yet figured out a better business model to streamline the remodeling process for the customer.

 

[sbrn33]

My in-laws just did this for their kitchen remodel. Went terribly, horribly wrong at almost every turn. Having HD install anything is obviously a bad idea. But the independent flooring place did a crappy install, and there were countless other examples. Hiring out can sometimes be a nightmare, too. I'm shocked no one has yet figured out a better business model to streamline the remodeling process for the customer.

They have!! It's called a General Contractor.

 

[Scuba_Dave]

Actually $80k saved, 10 year home equity loan would have cost us $108K
So I saved even more!!!
Oh, and of course I didn't save hundreds of dollars on the garage door I just installed by myself
And I didn't save thousands of dollars running my 60a sub panel to my shed, rewiring 90% of my house, adding (2) buried circuits out front for my Christmas display, adding another 6 outside outlets, installing my own radiant floor heat & tiling my bathroom, shower & hallway
And I didn't save thousands by installing my own patio out by the pool
And I didn't save thousands by doing my own landscaping
I didn't save any $$ by installing a solar water heater for my pool
I don't save any money with my 24x30 veggie garden
I didn't save any money by growing my own pumpkins
And I didn't save any money by doing my own design work/plans for the addition

 

[hj]

Diy

This info seemed like it was the authors opinion instead of what the code required for a safe installation. One thing actually caused the boxes to be overfilled.

Yet later you imply that you passed it. Getting a permit and inspections is completely useless if the improper work is going to be allowed. If that is the case, why go to the expense and trouble of getting either a permit or inspection? In that case the only thing a permit does is upgrade his taxing appraisal so he pays more each year.

 

[Ian Gills]

Dave, they are making fair points and Frenchie has helped me immensely with advice on my DIY remodelling so I do not agree that those on this forum are against DIY, far from it.

In my case, I earn over US$100,000 a year so the time I spend on my house is always a loss to me versus hiring a professional and me getting on with my day job. It quite simply takes me longer than them to do the same work.

So I do DIY because I enjoy it, not really for the savings because these are false economy but for the joy of soldering pipe; the excitment of an open electrical panel and the smell of new metal stud framing. But because the cost of my labor is so high I always try to use the best parts. I cannot afford to be doing the job again. That's why my toilet is a Cadet 3 and not a Toto!

For me, the best way to have saved money was to have done none of the work at all. Houses are money pits.

 

[GabeS]

I think Frenchie's point is valid. The acually time he was spending on his house, he could have been making money. Therefore that potential earnings(minus taxes, commuting, etc.) must be subtracted to figure net savings.

However, some people look at it this way:

Remodeling basement between hours of 7-9pm. Normally watching TV between those hours. Now fixing basement. Therefore saving money.

This is the way people look at it, but it's still wrong because someone could still be working those two hours doing something, and those potential earnings MUST be considered when calculating savings.

Now if Scuba enjoys what he's doing, then great. But his savings is not 80k. It's 80k minus his potential earnings during the time he's working on the house.

 

[JWelectric]

By these calculations he made $40k/year (tax free - .

What do you mean tax free?

 

[CR]

What do you mean tax free?

I was trying to say that for OP to get the money to pay someone $40k to do "x" amount of work, OP would have had to earn $40k + taxes at some other job. So he's (ignoring the semantics of the word "saving" for the moment) saving not just the $40k, but the $40k+taxes that he would have had to earn.

 

[JWelectric]

I was trying to say that for OP to get the money to pay someone $40k to do "x" amount of work, OP would have had to earn $40k + taxes at some other job. So he's (ignoring the semantics of the word "saving" for the moment) saving not just the $40k, but the $40k+taxes that he would have had to earn.

If he saved $40k then he has a captiol gain of $40k that should be declared on his income tax. Of course this does not have to be declared until the house is sold but it is still there and can not be left out of the equation.

 

[CR]

I think Frenchie's point is valid. The acually time he was spending on his house, he could have been making money. Therefore that potential earnings(minus taxes, commuting, etc.) must be subtracted to figure net savings.

However, some people look at it this way:

Remodeling basement between hours of 7-9pm. Normally watching TV between those hours. Now fixing basement. Therefore saving money.

This is the way people look at it, but it's still wrong because someone could still be working those two hours doing something, and those potential earnings MUST be considered when calculating savings.

Now if Scuba enjoys what he's doing, then great. But his savings is not 80k. It's 80k minus his potential earnings during the time he's working on the house.

I don't see the couch example is wrong. If what I do during my leisure time is something that saves money vs something that costs money - I feel I get to count that as money saved.

If I had a hobby (or 2nd job) making little wooden widgets that I sell at craft shows, and make $80k a year after non-labor expenses (that's a lot of widgets) - would you say that I don't really make $80k a year?

If I make $80k a year at my current day job but I could do different work (that I don't enjoy) that would pay $100k a year - then would you say I actually only make $60k a year?

I think I understand your point - that time=$. But I believe the choice for most DIY is between working overtime (if that's an option) or getting a 2nd job (if that's an option) vs spending that time doing something they actually enjoy - and saving some money at the same time. Why would I want to work extra hours at a crappy job so I can pay someone else to do something I actually would enjoy doing myself?

 

[GabeS]

I'm not saying to get a second job and hire out the work. I'm not saying why or why not.

Simply stating that your time is worth something and you must put a number on your hours.

In his example, he says he saved 80k but doesn't say how many hours he spent on the job. I'm guessing a ton. Those hours have to be considered.

 

[CR]

If he saved $40k then he has a captiol gain of $40k that should be declared on his income tax. Of course this does not have to be declared until the house is sold but it is still there and can not be left out of the equation.

This is a good point - he'd be able to offset the capitol gain if he paid someone else to do the work. However, there is a lifetime $500,000 exclusion on profits from sale of your home (assuming he's married and it is his primary residence).

 

[Scuba_Dave]

Houses are only money pits if you buy wrong
I bought my last house for $23,600, sold it for $200k
I put less then $40k into it, no money pit there
Pure profit

Your right I could have been making money
Oh wait I already covered that

Say I got a job for $30k
Child care $12k a year (actually $18k at current rate we were quoted)
Cost of a new car w/commuting $6k a year
Cost of Gas over $3k a year (at todays rates)
Taxes over $6k a year
That's $27k a year

Yes I saved $$, get over it

But i guess if I ran for President & won I could have made $200k or more a year

No Capital gains, didn't pay any on my last house, won't pay any on this house

Just is no point in discussing this any more

Glad you agree

 

[Ian Gills]

I love to flog a dead horse!

Houses are only money pits if you buy wrong
I bought my last house for $23,600, sold it for $200k
I put less then $40k into it, no money pit there
Pure profit

Perhaps but not necessarily. This could have just been market driven. In other words, if you had spent nothing at all and done nothing to it it may have sold for 180,000 rather than 200,000!

You would have been 20k up, with lots of spare time to do other things!

In the current market I have lost almost 60k on the value of my house compared to when I bought it. Add to that the 50k at least that I have put into it (probably half through DIY) and I am a sucker.

So the real way to make money is...buy cheap at the bottom of the market, spend and do nothing on the house, and sell again at the top of the market. If we all just knew where the top and bottom were we'd be laughing!

Economics teaches us to specialize, which is why I'd never let HJ near the electrical or jwelectric near the plumbing! But if they wanted to work something out between themselves then that's just fine. So if you really are earning that much...stop wasting your time on your own home and become a builder/developer.