Dishwasher overflow in sink came apart...

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by qkrinkle, Jul 12, 2006.

  1. qkrinkle

    qkrinkle New Member

    Messages:
    16
    the dishwasher overflow in the sink that connects to the disposal came apart when i was cleaning it. the green nozzle is just hanging under the sink now and the plastic/chrome cover is completely off.

    do i just use plumber's putty to reattach it? if so, how do i seal it from the bottom?

    thanks!:confused:
  2. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    You may need to buy a new one, because the reason it is hanging under the sink could be that the top flange nut cracked or stripped. Anyway, whether it is the new one or old one, they come with a foam gasket to seal, but I would use some putty or silicone as well. Don't run the diswasher while it is hanging down!
  3. qkrinkle

    qkrinkle New Member

    Messages:
    16
    flange nut?

    ok, what does the top flange nut look like?
  4. plumber1

    plumber1 Plumber

    Messages:
    1,423
    Location:
    Florida
    Turn the chrome cover over , you should see some threads right there at the bottom. That would be the nut.
  5. Verdeboy

    Verdeboy In the Trades

    Messages:
    2,051
    If we're talking about the air gap, and I think we are, they are rarely ever used anymore. You can just get rid of it altogether and buy a metal plug for the hole in your sink.

    First, though, you must disconnect both rubber hoses from the plastic part of the air gap (the part dangling under your sink) and connect these hoses together using a hose connector and two hose clamps.

    Now you can create your own air gap by raising this single hose as high as it will go and securing it in this position using a piece of wire or a couple twist-ties. Just find something under your sink to tie the hose to in this elevated position.

    The reason you need an air gap with a dishwasher is to prevent waste water from your garbage disposer getting into your nice clean dishwasher.

    But, as I mentioned, the above-sink airgap has been replaced by the below-sink method I just outlined.


    Eric
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2006
  6. Bad advice on many fronts. In some states they are enforced to protect from the reversal of contaminates into a device that produces sterile goods for the consumption of food.


    There's a reason it was installed to begin with. Removing devices intended to protect human life is ignorance.

    High looping never protects from the reversal of flow; water/fluids follow the path of least resistance and the clogged sink will backflow to the dishwasher before it ever spills over the flood level rim of the sink.
  7. Verdeboy

    Verdeboy In the Trades

    Messages:
    2,051
    A pacemaker is a device intended to protect human life. An air gap, at least in Michigan, is an obsolete piece of useless plastic that I haven't even seen installed for ten years. Furthermore, you can raise the hose under the sink to just a tad below the level of the top of the sink. Finally, if your sink is that backed up, you're not gonna be able to use your dishwasher anyway. And even if a small amount of dirty water got in there, it would be sitting in the bottom of the dishwasher. Once the drain problem is fixed, you then just run the dishwasher again.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2006
  8. plumber1

    plumber1 Plumber

    Messages:
    1,423
    Location:
    Florida
    I'm from Michigan too. We used to do the loop thing 40 or more years ago, but then it became code to use an air-gap. If that has changed then I don't know about. I'm from south eastern Mich.

  9. Two things can be derived from that statement:

    You are not a licensed plumber and you do not have education in cross-connections/backflow contamination. Stick to using twist-ties to fix your
    plumbing.

    High looping is a direct connection to the waste system and without the proper safeholds, it will contaminate the dishwasher. Plumbing principle #15, please read it. This goes to all plumbers who can think beyond their local code book and understand that high looping of a drain for a dishwasher is a gamble at best of working with the idea that the chances are slim that it will happen.

    I'm glad KY has the strictest plumbing codes in the country and others refer to our state for code references. It's great to not know any other way for plumbing requirements.
  10. Verdeboy

    Verdeboy In the Trades

    Messages:
    2,051
    I've worked in all sorts of apartment complexes in S.E. MIchigan over the past 15 years and some of them considered "luxury". Used to see airgaps back in the early nineties, but haven't seen one lately. I'm not a licensed plumber, just a maintenance man. In fact, I'm the one who has gone and high looped dishwasher drains that were just dragging on the ground!

    Eric
  11. qkrinkle

    qkrinkle New Member

    Messages:
    16
    fixed!

    thanks for all the help.

    i got it fixed w/ some muscle from my dad. i couldn't screw the top on the sink at the same time while holding up the hose underneath the sink. being 9 months pregnant doesn't help manueverability ;)
  12. speedball1

    speedball1 Retired plumber

    Messages:
    43
    Location:
    Sarasota Fl.

    High looping never protects from the reversal of flow; water/fluids follow the path of least resistance and the clogged sink will backflow to the dishwasher before it ever spills over the flood level rim of the sink.


    SAY WHAT?? Tell that to the countless dishwasher owners with drip loops that have been in operation with no problem for decades in my area. And believe me we've done a bunch of condos on the West Coast of Florida for the last 40 years with no complaints.
    I'll give you that if a home owner was stupid enough to fill a clogged sink up to the rim it would back up through the discharge hose. But as we discharge our dishwashers through the disposal and the home owner can see the water backing up before it even hits the drain we haven't had a home owner stupid enough to keep on filling a clogged sink. And besdes, we loop the hose up tight to the bottom of the cabinet top. You're gonna be backed up awfully close to the rim before it ever backs up into the DW. cheers, Tom
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2006
  13. I don't care what you have in your area, don't care what has worked for years. I'm going off the case histories recited through cross-connections between potable water systems and wastewater systems. This situation in particular deals with sterile goods and the device that creates sterile utensils for humans.

    As I repeat as I have countless times before, plumbing principle #15......it specifically states no direct connection to the waste system.

    I'll give you that if a home owner was stupid enough to fill a clogged sink up to the rim it would back up through the discharge hose. But as we discharge our dishwashers through the disposal and the home owner can see the water backing up before it even hits the drain we haven't had a home owner stupid enough to keep on filling a clogged sink.

    Here's the problem with your statement, you assume that someone is there to see the problem. That isn't the case. There is countless cross-connections caused by backflow/reversal of flow in potable water systems and wastewater systems. Also "complaints" is not what us plumbers are designed to take care of. We're put in this profession to enable plumbing systems to operate without error. You design a plumbing system to contaminate a device that produces sterile goods and you have a compromised plumbing system. End of statement.

    There's a case history of a woman who didn't know when she went upstairs to use her toilet, shower and and sink before she left on a plane trip that her wastewater went straight to the dishwasher because it followed the path of least resistance. That was a "supposed foolproof" high loop that I hear many spout off about as an approach to provide protection.

    Air Gaps are required in all types of commercial applications in all states. Just because the local authority is laxing on this particular requirement doesn't mean it doesn't provide adequate protection.

    I think most times the reason why high looping is so prevalent is due to pure laziness on the installer and the avoidance to drill a hole in the sink top. Better you than me as I will never afford that stupidity.

    Been frequenting/modding forums for years and I can count numerous threads with "Sink Backs up in Dishwasher" or "Raw Sewage in Dishwasher". That's enough to make anyone sick that doesn't realize it has happened.

    I have the distinct feeling that I'm the only licensed backflow tester that frequents these forums on the www. I wish there were more as I'm tired of being a lone voice in the crowd of many.

    Doesn't bother me too much; I'm educating and that's what I'm here for. Along with free popcorn. :D

    If you don't like what I have to say I don't really care. I know for a god given fact that I can visit your neighborhood and visit a restaurant or commercial business that has Air Gaps scattered through numerous applications to protect the reversal of flow of contaminates.

    I can't help the fact that it's not code across the U S of A on the residential level; it should be as the potential for harm is there in black and white. It is in my state, damn proud of that as well. We care about our families.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2006
  14. speedball1

    speedball1 Retired plumber

    Messages:
    43
    Location:
    Sarasota Fl.
    All I'm saying Rugged is that in all the hundreds of GE dishwashers my company has installed over the years that not one, (count em!) ONE!! complaint has ever reached our service desk. I understand that code authorities look at worst case scenario, A case in point is backflow preventers. The idea was to protect the potable water supply from contamination if you had a open hose laying in a puddle od crud and the city pressure went down causing a vacuum in the main that would just suck the crud out into the city system. Well, it hasn't happened in our area in all the years before they mandated backflow preventers. Are we beginning to see a similar set- up here? I can understand the need for air gaps in commercial institutions but like backflow preventers it addresses a "worst case" scenario.
    You say, " Been frequenting/modding forums for years and I can count numerous threads with "Sink Backs up in Dishwasher" or "Raw Sewage in Dishwasher".

    I have been on the plumbing page in another Q&A site for over two years and if you wish I'll give you a link so you can go back over the complaints I've recieved. I don't recall even one complaint about sewerage backing up in a dishwasher. Smelly dishwashers, faulty pump dishwashers, noisey dishwashers but no sewer dishwashers. This is not to say that it couldn't happen the way that you describe It just hasn't happened either on the site I hang out at or in all my years installing dishwashers in projects and condos.

    You also said,"There's a case history of a woman who didn't know when she went upstairs to use her toilet, shower and and sink before she left on a plane trip that her wastewater went straight to the dishwasher because it followed the path of least resistance."

    Now that's interesting. The kitchen sink at 3 feet from floor to flood rim is the lowest point in the system? No first floor bath? 1/2 bath or a floor drain? You're correct Rugged, air gaps would take away any chance of backflow contamination but abstinence from sex would prevent, STD's, Aids, unwanted pregnancies and probably put the abortion clinics out of business since recreational sex would be out of the question. And look at how much traction abstinence has with the general public.

    just one question before I leave. Just what in hell is a "Licensed Backflow Tester"?
    "I have the distinct feeling that I'm the only licensed backflow tester that frequents these forums on the www. I wish there were more as I'm tired of being a lone voice in the crowd of many."

    You have yourself a great weekend. Tom
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2006
  15. Anyone want to see my new Kipex 3-piece locking plier set?
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2006
  16. speedball1

    speedball1 Retired plumber

    Messages:
    43
    Location:
    Sarasota Fl.
    You're a real piece of work aren't you? Somebody wishes you "a great weekend" and you take it as a sarcastic putdown.
    "You have yourself a great weekend. Words of encouragement not needed but I'll take the kind gesture without the sarcastic connotation implied"
    You must be a barrel of fun and a million laughs to work around.
    Doesn't your arm ever get tired from patting yourself on the back?
    I can rattle tons of knowledge off. I know that hundreds if not thousands of eyes see these words and I really want those who nothing about plumbing to grasp the reality of my words. A meeting for credit hours for one of my many licenses I hold. I love rattling this stuff off. And "rattle you surely do.
    Hey!! Ya got me impressed with all that superior knowledge. Toot! Toot!!
    Can ya play a tune on that horn you're blowin?
    I find it odd that you are a resident expert of another site wandering what a backflow tester is. Every time there is a clogged drain, that is backflow.

    Not so "odd" since backflow preventers weren't part of our local codes untill after I retired in 1988 and about the only time they're mentioned is when they cause a T&P valve to open up because a expansion tank wasn't installed along with the backflow preventer.

    You're correct Rugged, air gaps would take away any chance of backflow contamination but abstinence from sex would prevent, STD's, Aids, unwanted pregnancies and probably put the abortion clinics out of business since recreational sex would be out of the question. And look at how much traction abstinence has with the general public.
    I swear you got to be posting under two names on this site. Now we have pacemakers and abstinence in the same subject matter. Indirect statements like these reinforce the very reason why they have created cross-connection programs

    I guess I just assumed that with all the "knowledge" that you lay claim to that you would be familiar with a "analogy". Sorry! i was in error.

    ""I encourage you to seriously gain knowledge on this important field of knowledge so you can better help those that rely on you in other forums across the web. It will be beneficial to both you and those you imply knowledge to"

    I love this remark. It really highlights your modesty. "I'm chock full of knowledge and you, you better begain to study so some day you can be as smart as I am" I gotta agree here, you're chock full of something but it's not knowledge. You're just chock full of yourself.
    I'm a 80 year old retired plumber. I don't claim the "knowledge" that you profess to have. Only about 50 years experience out in the field. My Daddy owned a plumbing shop and that's where I took my apprenticeship back in the 40's and have worked in the trade ever since. I came on these sites to give back a little of what I've learned and to make my self feel like I stillhave something to contribute. I don't need to take crap from you or anybody else you superior SOB. So you can take your condescending and superior ways and RAM EM, CRAM EM, AND JAM EM where the sun don't shine. (Would that constitute a "backup"?)
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2006
  17. Verdeboy

    Verdeboy In the Trades

    Messages:
    2,051
    Boy, I really started something here!

    All this red ink is making me dizzy!!

    I used to work in a restaurant washing dishes with a bunch of friends of mine who were very young and irresponsible. In a commercial setting like that you can't have too many regulations. Besides, the dishwasher is used hundreds of times a day.

    In a house, condo, apartment, etc., the dishwasher is used about once a day. Furthermore, when there is a sink backup, there are usually a few dishes, glasses, silverware, or pots and pans in the sink when that happens. These items then become contaminated. There is no rule or regulation about what someone must do in this case. Yet, we tend to muddle through without one. We don't lick the crud off with our tongue, become infected, and die. We wait 'til the backup is fixed and we throw them in the dishwasher. Or we go to another sink to clean them.

    It's been my experience that government rules and regulations, and the enforcement of such, increases with each passing day. So, the fact that high looping of dishwasher drains is allowed in Michigan and Florida, and New Mexico (where I currently live) tells you that it is not a problem.

    What is a problem, is when the little hole in the garbage disposer where the dishwasher drain comes in gets plugged up with gunk, and the dishwasher drains completely through the air gap onto the counter and onto the floor and onto the ceiling below. Now that's a problem that used to come up all the time, but doesn't anymore. Talk about a mess!!

    Eric
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2006
  18. I'm not 80 years old, daddy didn't give me the business. I don't come here to "spout off" as you indicate. I recall you taking interest in my statements and you replied in jargon that I've offended you greatly, and apparently I've ruined your weekend as well.

    I'm well versed on the subject matter on backflow/cross-connections/nascar/backflow devices. Why not share this with a community eager to learn. You take it as "gloating" and I take it as "informing". You asked me to provide a slew of answers to your questions and I gracefully replied. Apparently you think this is a pissing match to see who wins, it's not. I'm throwing out there what I've learned, not what works in my back yard.

    Even though Backflow devices are designed to protect the user(s) of whatever plumbing fixture is being used, whether directly or indirectly, Case histories are still climbing every day/week/month/year.

    Product failure, Incorrect installation (even by licensed plumbers) and comprising circumstances due to enviornmental or geographical incidents can lead to non-protection.

    #1 cross-connection I find in nearly every home I visit to do work in?

    3 foot garden hose connected to a laundry tub faucet hanging below the flood-level rim of the fixture it serves. No vaccum breaker and even a slight pressure change can draw contaminates right into that hose if the situation presents itself.

    I always mention this to my customers. Do I care they ignore my advice? Nope. Not my health at stake. All I want to do is my best to inform others of the hazards.

    So, speedball1, I have a great deal of respect for my elders whether they are in the profession or just in everyday life. I listen to those who know more than me since the history of their lives gives tons of experiences to learn from. Never once do I feel "above" anyone on this forum or in general life itself. What I basically preach to others in information trading is generally knowledge that has been applied for all areas of the community. At times I'll slip and state something that might not be code in another state. Whoops se daisy, axe me and throw stones. I know on this issue with the Air Gap though that the thread poster has a Air Gap. For some reason it must of been code at one time in that area because it's there.

    I applaud those who gave good knowledge on how to fix the problem. I have a problem when someone comes into a conversation and tells the thread starter "just high loop it, works for me for 40 years, it will work for you too."

    If I performed my work duties by following some of the "experts" that make a point to drive their implied knowledge because it worked them for all these years, I'd be in a sad state of affairs and I would be dishonest in my profession.

    I've chosen to follow my education and best convey it to others with good benefit. Doesn't make me special at all like you want it to be. Let the drama continue but you've thrown this off-topic and have taken it personal.

    Next time you approach someone in a thread regarding subject matter of backflow, please know more than just this:


    Not so "odd" since backflow preventers weren't part of our local codes untill after I retired in 1988 and about the only time they're mentioned is when they cause a T&P valve to open up because a expansion tank wasn't installed along with the backflow preventer.


    Backflow Prevention has come a long LONG way since 1988, and there is more than just T&P issues when regarding the subject matter.

    Take it easy old man, I'm thinking your hj's relative. (hj likes me, he sharpens the pencil the same way I do on these forums) I'm well beyond the "I'm better than you" crap that these forums sometimes create.

    It's all in good taste until someone takes it personal and I'd rather spend it doing something useful like information trading rather than argue.

    Sorry I raised your blood pressure and ruined your card game. Keep on contributing to a good cause (internet forums) like a select few of us do. It's addicting and sometimes you meet someone that crawls under your skin for whatever reason it has. It's just plumbing. Someday we're all replaced. Hopefully those who take in our shoes offer the same instinctive traits to help others when they don't have the funds or simply want to better themselves.

    I'm all for that last statement, otherwise I wouldn't consistently help others fix their plumbing problems without pay. I do need money for the dinner I paid for at the chinese restaurant I took my 3 nieces and 1 nephew to. $65 and I was hungry two hours later! Not Fair!!!
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2006
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