Disconnect for water heater??

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Speedy Petey

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hj said:
In that case there were a "jillion" electricians who did not know what they were doing, including the one that wired my new house 6 years ago, to match my 3 prong male plug.
Yes. That is exactly right.
If the electrician who wired your house wired the dryer circuit to match the plug then I'd love to see what else he did there. You match the plug to the receptacle, NOT the other way around. And the receptacle MUST be wired to code.
If he installed a 3-prong dryer circuit and receptacle six years ago he obviously did NOT know what he was doing. That or he simply didn't care. The neutral/ground bond exception was dropped in 1996. Four prong receptacles with a separate ground and neutral have been mandatory since then.
If he EVER wired a dryer with 10/2, ESPECIALLY as soon as six years ago, I'd love to know his name so I can report him to the licensing bureau.


hj said:
As I said, it was standard for decades.
You are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am NOT saying 3-prong dryer receptacles were not legal or safe. That WAS the standard for MANY years. I see them all the time. Only I mostly see them wired with 10/3 without ground or SEU cable. The old, yet CORRECT way.



hj said:
You never saw a 4 prong plug for a dryer until the last decade at the earliest.
Not true. 4-prong receptacles have always been code for dryers and ranges in mobile homes.




hj said:
Maybe you are too new in the business to go back that far.
Nice try.
 
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Chris75

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I don't think people know the difference between 10-2 and 10-3, there is some obvious confusion about the subject... hence the 3-wire and 4-wire dryer/receptacle comments being made...

The picture below is 10-2 NM, notice that if this was used for a dryer, you would be forced to use the bare copper wire for the neutral, this is the code violation, the neutral conductor MUST be insulated... Hence the use for 10-3 which would contain a blk,red,white, and bare copper conductor...
nm.jpg




Here are some examples of the 1996 code change dealing with 3-wire and 4-wire receptacles...

Three Wire Hook-up, Notice the Grounded (neutral) is also bonded to the frame of the dryer, so the neutral was also the ground.
terminalblock.jpg


Four Wire Hook-up, Notice the Grounded (neutral) and Grounding (ground) conductors are isolated...
4prongcord_small.jpg
 
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frenchelectrican

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Chris75 said:
I don't think people know the difference between 10-2 and 10-3, there is some obvious confusion about the subject... hence the 3-wire and 4-wire dryer/receptacle comments being made...

The picture below is 10-2 NM, notice that if this was used for a dryer, you would be forced to use the bare copper wire for the neutral, this is the code violation, the neutral conductor MUST be insulated... Hence the use for 10-3 which would contain a blk,red,white, and bare copper conductor...
nm.jpg




Here are some examples of the 1996 code change dealing with 3-wire and 4-wire receptacles...

Three Wire Hook-up, Notice the Grounded (neutral) is also bonded to the frame of the dryer, so the neutral was also the ground.
terminalblock.jpg


Four Wire Hook-up, Notice the Grounded (neutral) and Grounding (ground) conductors are isolated...
4prongcord_small.jpg

chris please look at the 4 wire cord connector on the dryer there is two code voliations there allready

1] where is the " strain relef aka NM clamp "

2] did you see where the greenwire still on the netural wire

Merci, Marc
 

frenchelectrican

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hj said:
You never saw a 4 prong plug for a dryer until the last decade at the earliest. Maybe you are too new in the business to go back that far.


HJ: the code was in effect for Mobile homes for range and dryers it was enforced way back late 50's- early 60's

the same with city of Chicago they have that code way before the NEC change that code as well

HJ , you may want to ask any old electrician or find the older NEC code book that go back in history and find how far it went back.

if you think the NEC is tough try this the european electrical code is very insane [ i allready got master from France so i am very famuiar with their insane code and connections that make your mind spin ]

Merci , Marc
 

Speedy Petey

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frenchelectrican said:
2] did you see where the greenwire still on the netural wire
Marc, this is a pretty common procedure. That green is the one from the wiring harness that is bonded to the neutral.
What's nice about doing it that way is if they ever move to a home with an older 3-wire receptacle it can be converted back without any trouble.
 

sbrn33

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I am assuming that HJ doesn't know the difference between 10-2 and 10-3 and definitively doesn't know the difference between neutral and ground or understand that neutral is a current carrying conductor in most cases. This si why it must be insulated.
Probably shouldn't be giving advice on an electrical forum.
 

Chris75

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frenchelectrican said:
chris please look at the 4 wire cord connector on the dryer there is two code voliations there allready

1] where is the " strain relef aka NM clamp "

2] did you see where the greenwire still on the netural wire

Merci, Marc

What do you want from a picture off the net? perfect? :D
 

Alectrician

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The ONLY exception was when SEU cable was used. This is the service cable that has two conductors with the grounded (NOT grounding) conductor wrapped around them.


Semantics. #10 SE = 10-2.

2 #10 hots and a ground.
 

Speedy Petey

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Alectrician said:
Semantics. #10 SE = 10-2.

2 #10 hots and a ground.
First of all, bull! #10 SEU would NOT be 10/2. It would be #10SEU, period. The conductor identification would be "3c 10".
#2 SEU would be "2c 2, 1c 4". Two conductors #2 and one conductor #4.

SER is rated the same way just a bit different. #2AL SER would be "2-2-2-4".

Once again, #10 SE does NOT = 10-2.
 

KD

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In my county, 10-3 w G is now required for dryers, with a four prong cord.
 

dannygd3

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i hope those who have a 10-2 ran for their dryer wear their shoes while doing laundry! the fact that the ground and neutral have to be bonded at the main doesn't mean they're interchangeable, the ground wire can't act as the neutral. the least of the worries here is that the NEC states that the neutral must be identified by having stripes in the insulation, white or gray colored insulation (unless #6? i think? or larger then they have to be marked with phase tape) correct me if i'm wrong there's always something to learn
 

dannygd3

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just because it's common doesn't mean it's right...the green from the dryer cord should be bonded to the dryer not to the neutral. go nuts and bond the neutral and ground as many times as you want at/before the main there's nothing in the code against that but after the main bonding them is against code with the exception of at a transformer which shouldn't really come into play in residential.
 

dannygd3

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i've been doing this a while, not forever so i don't know what used to be allowed but the only time i've seen the 3 prong dryer receptacles is on remodel type jobs where the electrical installation was done before pulling a ground wire was the norm
 

Jimbo

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i've been doing this a while, not forever so i don't know what used to be allowed but the only time i've seen the 3 prong dryer receptacles is on remodel type jobs where the electrical installation was done before pulling a ground wire was the norm

That is correct, danny. The elect code changed sometime late '80s early '90s, requiring 4 prong for stoves and dryers . One of the electric gurus will tell us the exact year.

As far as I know, if the three prong is in place, you can still use it as long as you don't move or remodel. Installers need to understand the difference, because the new appliance may come "rigged" for 4 wire cord, so you have to rearrange the ground/neutral connections on the block per the install manual
 

hj

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Again we are talking semantics, because the "neutral" in the SEU cable is carrying current, but NOT insulated by anything other than the sheathing. When the electricians wired my 3 prong receptacle, they did NOT even know what kind of cord my dryer had.
 
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