Dedicated electrical box (for hot water tank) needs replacing: what to expect?

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The Old Maid

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Electrician said they'd have to special-order. True, the circuit breaker box is a model they don't seem to make anymore, but is that so important? I was under the impression that (for one) Home Depot sells Square D equivalents.

In fact, it might be better not to get the exact replacement. It's probable that the box was installed back when water heater tanks drew less current and/or 30-gallon tanks were easy to find, and that the box died because it can't handle the higher-powered 40-gallon unit we have now.

Of course we won't hold anyone here to it, but can someone give me a ballpark figure of labor, parts, and cost? Cold showers may build character, but we've got plenty.

(Okay to mirror this on the Water Tanks forum if appropriate.)
 

Reach4

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Special order to get a circuit breaker that is not stocked locally is not a big deal IMO.

There are some that might think about getting a new box as part of an upgrade. For example, if you had a 60 amp panel, you might want to consider an upgrade. Is your panel Pushmatic by chance?
 

The Old Maid

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Special order to get a circuit breaker that is not stocked locally is not a big deal IMO.

There are some that might think about getting a new box as part of an upgrade. For example, if you had a 60 amp panel, you might want to consider an upgrade. Is your panel Pushmatic by chance?
Not to my knowledge. The box is an ancient Federal (in fact it's a little hard to read what amp), but the double-toggles look like those I've seen in any store. The two facts put together make me think that the part/s that require "special" order may be better off dumped. We're trying to figure out what the ballpark figure is for a new box with appropriate circuits. Replacing existing parts doesn't seem easier or cheaper so far.
 
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Since you have not provided pics, I will generalize and use my own assumptions that I feel is best to what I choose to describe for.

"Breaker boxes" are basically metal boxes to hold "modular" circuit breakers. Each manufacturer has pretty much the same idea: The source hot-neutral-hot wire, coming from the power company or another "box" source, is fed into this box, and fastended to the back rails in the box. Circuit breakers snap onto this rail, each one bridges the incoming electricity and sends it to its outgoing load wire, which would be the water heater in this case. This doesn't matter if it's a 200A box for the home, or a little shoebox sized box to hold just one or two breakers.

30A is correct for a 40 gal water heater. Putting a 30A breaker in a 30A breaker box is not WORSE than a 30A breaker in a 60A breaker box. The load is on the breaker itself, NOT the box. If the water heater is the only thing for this breaker box, it only needs to match the intended breaker of 30A. Using a "bigger" box because you believe is "more" just results in a physically larger thing occupying space to hit your head on.

Unless there is serious damage to a "box", from something like an electrical burn or corrosion, whatever to cause serious damage to the coppers and contacts inside, normally we just replace the supposedly bad breaker with another one, new or used.

Electricians are always hunting for breakers pulled from re-fits, flea markets, garage sales, ebay, and keep then handy in their trucks, because if the client doesn't want to pay for a new box, they are easily lured to just replacing the bad (discontinued) breaker, and the electrician asks whatever they want for the used part.

If an old box is deemed dangerous to use and favors for a new box, it is a good idea to choose whatever you local big box store sells, because when breakers go bad, it's just a trip down your street. What are the material costs? I just calculated it from a big box's website.

A message for the DIY: think twice before you begin, ASK your home insurance company if they allow DIY. Each vary in clauses, and some VOID and DENY claims if a fire was a result of a DIY or unlicensed. DIY electrical isn't a crime, your particular insurance policy may require your work be verified by a licensed professional. When plumbing is shoddy, things just get wet. When electrical is shoddy, houses burn down and people die.
Square_D_QO2L40RBCP_QO_40_Amp.jpg
 
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WorthFlorida

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Google search Federal Pacific problem and all kinds of warnings come up The electrician want to replace perhaps an old outdated breaker box because of safety. It's his liability that is on the line. Many old panels that do seem to work OK but do not meet the latest UL or NEC requirements. Many small improvement have been made to circuit panels to make them safer and to last longer. Many old outdated breaker panels may have heavy oxidation on the buss or burn marks as HVAC'ker mentioned above. Number one rule, alway use the circuit breakers that panel was designed for. Just because another breaker off the shelf looks like it will fit and work, it most likely will not fit perfectly and not be safe or reliable.

http://www.homeinspectormark.com/si...deral_pacific_circuit_breaker_information.pdf

What changed from old water heater installs is most water heaters now require a 30 amp breaker with #10 gauge wire (NEC improvement). At one time 20 amp with 12 gauge wire was the norm. Any modified work a licensed and insured electrician must do is bring the work to the latest code for your safety.
 
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Speedy Petey

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NO WAY anyone should have to special order a disconnect box for a typical tank-style water heater.
A $10 standard no-fusible pull-out disconnect is all you need.
Agree, I'd like to see pics before commenting further. There may be more here than we all realize. You may be talking about a breaker incorrectly pulled off the main lugs.
 
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Speedy Petey

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What changed from old water heater installs is most water heaters now require a 30 amp breaker with #10 gauge wire (NEC improvement). At one time 20 amp with 12 gauge wire was the norm. Any modified work a licensed and insured electrician must do is bring the work to the latest code for your safety.
Nothing changed. Water heaters have had 4500 watt elements for 40-50 years now. It's just that folks incorrectly used #12 and 20A back in the olden days.
Even the oldest tank-style water heater I have seen had 4500 watt elements. Now, if you can find rare units with 3800 watt elements then that's different.
 

WorthFlorida

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What else do we do on Christmas morning. Exactly what you stated "40-50 years". In South Florida go to homes that were built in the 60's and you'll see 12ga, 20 amp set ups. When members asked for solutions it is always best that they state the year the home was built or at least any remodeling or electrical upgrade in the year.

The 3800 watt units were sold by Sears in their Kenmore line (I sold them). They went after the replacement market and many old homes were not wired for the 4500 elements. Again liability concerns. Probably cannot find 3800 watt units anymore but occasional I'll see replacement elements of the lower wattage. When you open up the water heater electrical connection, you'll noticed that it is 12 gauge wiring inside the water heater.
 
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Jadnashua

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Wire has internal resistance. The gauge within a device may often not be the same gauge as what is required to supply it because it has been calculated to not have enough resistance in that short run to be a problem, and smaller wire is cheaper. There is no way the device maker can determine how long the wire is from the panel to the device, so the gauge must be sufficient for any reasonable length to provide proper voltage at the unit in accordance with the protection device that is in use.
 
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