Deck over space

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Vegas_sparky

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This is gonna be an interesting thread.

With systems that have some kind of drain membrane underneath a layer of deckmud, how does water not accumulate and freeze, in cold climates? I understand it should all drain out under perfect conditions, but what about a little bit that does not?
 

Jadnashua

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Schluter's recommendations for a deck over occupied spaces is found on page 18 of their Ditra installation manual http://www.schluter.com/media/ditra-handbook_eng.pdf?v=201408280600 . They want a mudbed because many roofing membranes are compressible and mortar does not stick to them - a mudbed is a great surface to tile to. As to freeze/thaw results, look at page 26...using the same mortar as a dryset, then with the liquid modifier added to make it an A118.4 classification mortar, the unmodified had a higher shear bond strength to concrete than the modified did AND passed all of the freeze-thaw tests that are part of A118.4. So much for John's assertion that Schluter doesn't test their materials. Schluter has been doing this for over 25-years...much longer than John has been in the tile business, has trained professionals that understand their products and how best to use them working on development, testing, and support. It certainly isn't the only product out there, and isn't the only way to do things, but it does work should you choose to use it.

What kind of a point load needs 8-stacked 2x8's? Maybe a masonry fireplace? Planning on hosting a convention of Sumo wrestlers or a pro football team?
 

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Jadnashua

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John likes to ignore the TCNA guidelines unless they conform to his concept of what's right. He also likes to ignore company product use guidelines, and argues that ANSI specifications don't mean much. Well, the industry has much more experience, investment, and integrity in testing, use, and understanding of their products than any one person will ever have. You can abuse a product, and not get a failure, but you may never know, as you may not monitor it for years - some of the results are cumulative, and very specific and, maybe more important, may not show up for years. The specifications and industry testing are there to verify that things actually meet their promoted characteristics WHEN USED AS INDICATED, not necessarily as John likes it!

Any time I call him on his abuse of one of those things, he falls back onto 'he's not a pro, and doesn't know what he's talking about'. Well, when I post references to the specs and industry guidelines that back it up, they are totally dismissed. One does not have to use the products every day to understand this. Someone who does, may 'think' it works, but it may only work in a very specific situation, and especially if that isn't explained to the DIY'er, they can easily think that rule doesn't apply and use a product incorrectly and have it fail.

Try promoting a method that will work, follows industry guidelines, maintains the manufacturer's warranty, and I won't bug you.
 

ShowerDude

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Im going to grab a six pack and stay glued here for what is shaping up to be a possible good verbal tennis match!!

On another note Jimbo, its just that you cannot advise on the actual hands on performance of said products in a long term jobsite situation with a million variables and budgets . Your jargon comes from research clearly and on that note you have a shabby soapbox to preach warrantys from..

Why dont you walk us thru a wrrty claim and how that effects the contractor. What exactly does the big orange team do???? Whats the process and how long does it take until the client gets there 1 and only bathroom back? Can you give us an example of sticking to the rulebook and getting a wrrty clAim paid?

I can as i have a few detailed examples... But lets hear your story and example.....

Surely you do your homework, just that you may need actual field experience to go along with it IMO.

I have yet to build anything in a lab setting so what do i know..
 

DonL

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A 12 or 24 pack would be more better.

It is going to be a long weekend.
 

Jadnashua

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You're missing the point...as a contractor, essentially YOU are the warrantor, especially if you do not follow the industry guidelines or the manufacturer's instructions on how to use the product. IT's a different ballgame when you are DIY'er...most of the people here asking for help are NOT professionals, may never have done something like the project they are attempting, and do not understand the nuances of well, that will work if I do it this way (learned the hard way), but not if done like this...

Experience certainly makes a difference on how fast and how well something goes together. But, again, the primary user's of this site seeking help are NOT professionals, and when one of them shows something that doesn't always work, the DIY'er can be led down the primrose path to failure. A pro is more likely to have the skills and understanding, and be able to push the limits. A DIY'er NEEDS those buffers, and the industry guidelines and manufacturers instructions account for that.

Until you understand that, we'll continue to have disagreements. A couple of examples: large format tile installed in a brick pattern - certainly can work IF the tile are very, very flat - can happen, but the industry guidelines account for most of them and the recommendation is do not do this. Showing an example, but not making the pertinent fact that the tile must be VERY carefully selected, is just setting up a DIY'er for failure with excessive lippage. Using a bonded mudbed over an uncoupling membrane to level the floor breaks lots of industry rules and manufacturer's instructions (and in this case , it cracked - no big surprise if you have any understanding of the materials involved) posted as a 'good' way to do things. I could go on, but won't.
 
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DonL

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I do not see a reason to bash someone like JW is doing.

You may not have room to talk Jim. I do not know.

I do not allow personal attacks on my web sites.

Terry should not either.

John gave me permission to Block him from the internet.

The fun has just begun. I hope he got his new WiFi T-Stat installed.
 

Eurob

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Pissing over drywall.JPG
No time for the WiFi T-Stat installation , drywall is still in the garage testing facility . ;)
 

ShowerDude

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Jim bringin it in long form..!!!.. As did I! Don and Roberto back in form and vegas on the way.....!!! Good times
 

Eurob

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Another way to derail your thread(s) John . When Jim is not up to it , you have a new '' fan '' o_O

Are you looking for instructional literature or videos ? Go to youtube or manufacturer's website .

I am still looking at the buffers allowed by the '' industry '' -- 50 psi minimum -- you better do it right for the first time .....or , DIY'ers ask Jim directly . He will show you the '' industry standards '' and you will never set a tile doing it contrary to the rules -- brick pattern -- .

With all the threads John -- our JW --started , he probably is the champion of explanatory action . I don't even know where he finds time to work -- hands on -- , train a soccer team , renovate his own bathroom , sell some ACO drains , and on and on and on -- the list is huge -- . No wonder he can not fit Jim in the schedule .... blocking him is the only real solution .
 

Jadnashua

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You still don't get it...the industry standards are defined so that the project will work, not that it will only work if you select materials with very special qualities or characteristics. When something is demonstrated, and it does not adhere to industry standards, it is imperative to explain why it works, and what is required to have a successful result - and what 'gotchas' there are with selecting that course of action. Rarely does that happen until I point it out, then I get bashed. What a pro can possibly do in his sleep, would never occur to a first-time DIY'er. You do not need to dumb anything down, just explain it in the context of that they may never have done it before and do not know what those 'gotchas' are.
 

Eurob

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You will never get it ...... the industry doesn't address specifics , just general recommendations .

Addressing specifics it is what we do daily ....don't need to or have time to explain it . If you want to participate to a thread where nothing is asked , just presented , you or any member can easily ask any question relevant to the subject .

Stop doing the know it all S man . Going to seminars from time to time will not even touch a .000005% of doing a hands on project .
 

DonL

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You will never get it ...... the industry doesn't address specifics , just general recommendations .

Addressing specifics it is what we do daily ....don't need to or have time to explain it . If you want to participate to a thread where nothing is asked , just presented , you or any member can easily ask any question relevant to the subject .

Stop doing the know it all S man . Going to seminars from time to time will not even touch a .000005% of doing a hands on project .


2.5 days seems a bit quick to learn much.

Most of my schools were 2 weeks, Party on the weekend.

What Jim and John does is very cool. I know nothing about it.


But I can stir the shit, just as well.


Have Fun everyone.
 

Jadnashua

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None of the manufacturer's workshops will make you an expert, but do show you the materials, and give you a hands-on opportunity to use them under supervision that helps point out some of the fine points. And, they give you resources and explanations on why the instructions are as written, aiding you to make the decision on whether tweaking them is a good idea in your specific circumstance.

Keep in mind, the TCNA has done some studies and found that 70-80% of the tiled showers built fail in one manner or another, so there are a LOT of people out there that think they know how to do it, don't really have a clue. And, a DIYer is unlikely to know enough about whether bending the rule on one of the guidelines is prudent in doing something he may never have done before.

Yes, a pro learns what is possible in bending and stretching the capabilities of materials, but that does not mean a DIYer has a chance of making it work on his project...thus, abiding by the industry guidelines puts him in a much more reliable situation. A pro showcasing his work is one thing, recommending breaking the guidelines without the understanding of the exact circumstances required to make it work being passed on to a DIYer is just creating problems. John Whipple is not going to be there to guarantee the DIYer's job, or make it right...the DIYer's only backup is the manufacturer.
 

Eurob

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Looking good John . I could say a -- more than by the book -- installation . Well done !

I think I will send you a real mud bed ( sand coat ) trowel . Those wood flat trowel are not looking so good next to the Marshall margin trowel . You would love it once you get used to it .

Mud trowel 002.jpg
 

Eurob

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I'm shattered today. Yesterday was a long day. Did not start till past ten and then got to work and realize I had no slurry coat. Had to double back to Centanii and did not finish this shower till after eight at night.

Roberto any tips on deck mud mixing? I found the 2-3 litter spec on the 3701 much to hard to work with. To dry of a mix for the drill. I started out with 3.6 litters of water and mixed 80% of a bag and got that loose and mixed. Then I dumped out this slurry into two smaller 3 gallon buckets and the remaining 3701 and a hair more from a spare bag to get the drier mix.

Worked well but a lot of drilling time. Must have spend a total of 45 minutes alone yesterday just spinning mud. The bag shows a concrete mixer in the instructions. Too bad I don't have one....


I know what you mean . ;)

No tips for the 3701 ....I am not using it . I mix my own mud bed -- portland and coarse sand -- to a 4:1 ratio ....with a shovel ....and the water goes in -- by eye -- until it reaches the right consistency . Mixing it well is the winner . :)

It looks something like this

Demo & Prep & Mud Bed 061.jpg


and I carry it with this -- when access is available

Tools for mud bed -- transporting and mixer.jpg



And no , I do not mix the mud bed in the wheel barrow . :)
 
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