Cycle Stop Valve = Lots of air?

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by jimmym, Dec 19, 2005.

  1. jimmym

    jimmym New Member

    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    New York
    I just installed a CSV160 in my house.
    I plumb from the incoming pump pipe to the CSV160 -> Check-> bladder tank.
    I have the pressure switch set to 55/70. I'll be switching to a different pressure switch soon and try 55/65 PSI. I have amazing water pressure and flow. One thing though. I have a TON of air in the pipes.
    I installed it on Saturday morning and all went well. Upon startup, I bled the air (I thought) and it seemed to go well. My wife and I have taken showers, run the dishwasher, flushed toilets and still have air in the system. I took a shower this morning and had a lot of air noise from the shower valve and pipes. Also, when I used the sink, a lot of air, just air, came out.
    Can the restriction caused by the CSV throttling at low flow be causing this?
    How long should it take to get the air out of a completely empty system?
  2. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    It sounds to me that something is adding air to the water. Maybe one of your plumbing joints is allowing air in but no water leak; that can happen with PE tubing and insert fittings.

    Are you sure there should be a check valve on the house side to the CSV?

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates
  3. Pumpman

    Pumpman Pump Sales

    Messages:
    191
    Location:
    So. Cal
    I wondered about the checkvalve too Gary. I just installed a CSV on a system and the check was installed between pump and CSV, not after it.
    It sounds to me like, too, that there is air being introduced into the system.
    Ron
  4. jimmym

    jimmym New Member

    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    New York
    I was wondering about that check too. But the original arrangement had a check between the pump and tank. I just added the CSV between the pump and the check. I shut off the pump last night and ran the shower (end of the line) to empty the bladder tank into the system. It unloaded a TON of air into the pipes and I've vented most of it out. I'll be noting conditions throughout the week to see if there's any correlation. When the CSV is throttled down after water use and the tank is filling, I hear hissing, like the water is being squeezed through a small orifice. I understand that is, in fact, what is happening. But could this be causing cavitation and pulling dissolved air out of the water and leaving it undissolved. My wife and I love the water pressure. I just dread having to add an air separator.

    Once I have the air question answered, I'll be changing pressure switches to something like on-55/off-65. Do you pump and well gurus know of a switch like this? My Pumptrol can only go down to a 15PSI deadband.
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2005
  5. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Go to http://www.cylestopvalves.com and look up the instructions. I don't think the check should be there. Most any switch can be adjusted with a 15 lb differential.

    Also, are you sure you have the correct model for your water system?

    I think your problem is a leak at the submersible pump check valve or in the plumbing between the CSV and the pump's check valve. The CSV is allowing air into the line and water is draining out of the plumbing back to the well. The check at the tank was hiding the problem until you installed to CSV which allows air into the plumbing.

    Ron, does that sound right to you, I've never installed a CSV?

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates
  6. jimmym

    jimmym New Member

    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    New York
    So if I move the check to the pump side of the CSV it should "re-mask" the problem? I'll go for that.
    I've got the switch down to the 15lb differential. I want to go to a 10 lb differential. As it is, the pump has to push 1 GPM through the CSV to get it from 60 PSI up to 70 PSI, then it shuts off. It just runs so long to get up to 70. I've got a pretty big bladder tank. I can't seem to find a Pumptrol type switch that goes down to a 10 PSI diff. But I have found a switch (10 amp capacity) elsewhere. I'll have to use it to drive a contactor, but it's no big deal.
  7. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    You are undoing the benefits of the CSV by using a large pressure tank. The pressure tank, its compressed air, provides the pressure when the pump isn't running.

    Masking a leak in the well or of the pump's check valve is not a good idea. That's why I don't install a check at the pressure tank. If the leak is caused by a broken fitting, you can lose the pump down the well.

    You are geting up to the max pressure for a well water system when you get to 65-70 psi. Ifyou have a pressure relief valve, they are set to 75 psi and over that they blow. I suggest not more than 60 psi.

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates
  8. jimmym

    jimmym New Member

    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    New York
    I agree about the tank size. But it's the tank that was there when it was just the standard pump/tank arrangement. If the air issue goes away (ie: I'm keeping the CSV), I'll get a smaller tank.

    Originally, it had a check between the pump and the tank (at the tank), and I never had problems with air at all. I don't think it was leaking back down the well because of a hole in the pipe above ground. If the CSV lets air in (Really???) it would act as a vacuum breaker if there were a problem at the pump and allow the water to drain back to water level. That would cause MASSIVE air problems.

    75 PSI huh? Damn, I thought it was 100 PSI. During testing it got a little over (indicated) 75 PSI. Lucky I didn't pop that thing open.
    Oh well, after I replace the pressure switch, it will cut in at 55 and out at 65 PSI. Maybe I'll return the CSV and get the 50 PSI model or get a 100 PSI relief.
  9. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    In my opinion the only check valve there should be is the one in the submersible pump. Like Gary said, your masking a leak with the check valve and that's the only way your getting air. Take the check valve out and the air will disappear. Of coarse your pump will cycle occasionally depending on the size of the leak and the size of your bladder tank.

    bob...
  10. jimmym

    jimmym New Member

    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    New York
    This has got me PISSED! I'm about to return the damn CSV.
    Monday night I shut off the pump, closed the valve between the tank and the house, and opened the hose bib drain. The tank emptied through the garden hose. After a little while 30-45 seconds. Air blew out of the hose in a powerful blast for a second, blowing water and gravel all over the place. When it stopped, I closed the drain, started the pump, and opened the house valve. I then opened every faucet in the house for about 10 minutes, until no more air came out of the faucets (pump holds 52 PSI with everything open). I shut them all off and things were pretty quiet for a while. Then the air started again. Blowing air out of the faucets with accompanying spitting water.
    The thing is... I had a check valve at the tank, BEFORE any air problems. I only inserted the CSV before the check.
    Where is the air coming from?
    Tonight I'm going to remove the CSV only, and drain/purge everything again.
    After that I'll remove the check and see if the line holds pressure. We'll see. I'm at my wits end. I wish I had the money to have a new pump, pipe, and VSD installed (how much, by the way?). Sorry to rant, guys.
  11. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    There is no way the CSV is giving you air Jimmym. It's not a nozzle and venturi so it can't draw air as the pump runs. It is a diaphragm type device that maintains a constant pressure upstream of itself.

    I think what you have here is a coincidence. A leak appeared just around the time you installed the CSV.

    I would remove the check valve no matter what is going on. It shouldn't be there.

    I hope the gravel you said went everywhere was not from the well!

    bob...
  12. jimmym

    jimmym New Member

    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    New York
    I was thinking that the CSV was causing cavitation and separating dissolved air.

    I'll re-examine everything for a possible leak. Then I'll pull the check valve (brand new) and see what happens. I don't like the idea of having the tank emptying through a leak somewhere. But what are my options really.
    I suppose I can shut off the pump over night and see what happens to the pressure.
    So, to sum up...
    Pump --> CSV --> Tank --> House
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2005
  13. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I know you don't wanna hear this!! But another possibility is a dry well; air suction instead of water due to using more water with the constant pressure caused by the CSV AND you increased pressure settings.

    The proof is in your draining the tank and getting rid of all air and then it returning after 10 +/- minutes of running 52 psi with all faucets wide open, and back comes the air problem... So maybe no leak but too much water use.

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates
  14. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    The danger of the check valve is; if you have a leak in the droppipe and/or the pipe from the well to the house. Since the check valve removes all the pressure from those lines, they are now a vacuum line which can pull contamination into the lines along with "AIR" which will be pumped into the house next time the pump comes on.

    Don't worry about water leaking out of the pipe under pressure without the check valve. Nothing is going to get into the pipes this way, just out.

    When you remove the check valve, I'm sure you will see that you have a leak/s somewhere on the pump side of the removed check valve.

    bob...
  15. jimmym

    jimmym New Member

    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    New York
    The faucets never spit air while running for extended periods. Or immediately afterwards. There was almost no noise at all at the tank. You could barely hear water flowing through the pipes. It was quiet for a while then the air slowly reoccurred as the system was used normally. The next morning was the worst.
    If it turns out the well is going dry (I sincerely doubt it), we'll just have to have it punched down another hundred feet or whatever. At this point I can get the new pump and piping. I'd like to avoid this, but if it's necessary, it's necessary.
  16. jimmym

    jimmym New Member

    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    New York
    I'll give it a shot. I did replace the check when I did the CSV. Perhaps the old check was leaking back and keeping the pipe pressurized. The new check is working properly and is allowing the pipe to draw a vacuum. Hmmmmm.
    Only tests will tell.
  17. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    The fact that you don't see air after a while of running steady rules out the CSV causing the air.

    bob...
  18. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    jim, I must have misunderstood this: "I closed the drain, started the pump, and opened the house valve. I then opened every faucet in the house for about 10 minutes, until no more air came out of the faucets (pump holds 52 PSI with everything open). I shut them all off and things were pretty quiet for a while. Then the air started again. Blowing air out of the faucets with accompanying spitting water.". What do you mean there if not that you ran water for 10 minutes at 52 psi and then the air was spitting out the faucets again? Or should I ask how you expect the air to get out of the lines if the water wasn't running for those ten minutes, to flush it out of them...

    It certainly sounds like a dry well to me...

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates
  19. jimmym

    jimmym New Member

    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    New York
    Ahhh, yeah. Sorry. I didn't communicate clearly enough.
    What I meant was that after draining and running everything for about 10 minutes with no signs of air, I shut off the faucets thinking all was well. Then, after normal use over the course of a day, the air problem slowly came back. It was the worst during my morning shower the next day.

    What you understood definitely sounds like a dry well. You're right.
  20. jimmym

    jimmym New Member

    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    New York
    The CSV works fine while flow is up. Like during a shower. But I was thinking that after water use ends, and the valve throttles down to allow only 1 GPM, it cavitates. Since all the water is going into the tank at that point. all the air would be too.
    I'm going to lay off the "CSV is causing air" rant until I try what you suggested. Removing the check.
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