Curbless Shower

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by Freddie, Dec 13, 2012.

  1. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,126
    Location:
    New England
    FWIW, since I put pex hydronic heat in my bathroom embedded in slc, the bathroom floor is quite a bit higher than the rooms outside. I had my granite fabricator make me some custom thresholds with a taper (set like a big tile at the entry) to make the entry acceptable. There are pre-made ramps available if you have carpeting outside the bathroom that will take up the difference, but if wood, then custom milling is probably the best way to go.
  2. Freddie

    Freddie New Member

    Messages:
    54
    Location:
    Ottawa
    Actually the bathroom floor is off the master bedroom which currently has carpets but...as soon as the bathroom is done I will be ripping up the bedroom carpet so I have options. Hallway has carpeting at 3/4" or a slight bit higher so would be perfect match for hardwood in the bedroom or new carpeting. At 1" height in the bathroom, that is what was there, no need for a ramp of any type; it'll just be a slight 1/4" lip which is there now and is not a problem at all. This is what I'm aiming for right now. If I have to have a slight ramp at the entrance to bathroom for the ability to have a curbless entry to the shower then that's a tradeoff I'll have to decide that if it is worth it or not...depending on how high the ramp has to be.
  3. Freddie

    Freddie New Member

    Messages:
    54
    Location:
    Ottawa
    Haven't looked at deflection at all yet for the majority of the bathroom as nothing is really changing yet drastically. Current joists are 2 x 10, 12' span, 24" OC.

    Only changes in bathroom are that a Victoria and Albert IOS tub will replace a jacuzzi tub that we had. So max 250 lbs of additional water there. New tub is about 100 lbs heavier than old tub but old tub also had pump and motor and full framing built around the tub so I'd call that even.

    Old shower is removed and replaced with new shower. Except for added weight on mud bed, if I go that way, don't see really any change there in total weight.
  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,126
    Location:
    New England
    Your deflection could be marginal for ceramic and is definately unsuitable for natural stone tile. It depends on the species of wood the joists are made of - if it is southern yellow pin or douglas fir, you're just above the minimums. If it is some other species, you should not tile it without beefing things up. This assumes that the joists are in good shape, not a lot of knots, no notches for plumbing or wiring, and to code holes for wiring and plumbing. Since your installation is marginal, anything not to code could put your joists below the minimum for a reliable tiled floor.

    24"oc means that between joist deflection is a problem, too. You'd want some significant subflooring to ensure that deflection is in spec as well.
  5. Freddie

    Freddie New Member

    Messages:
    54
    Location:
    Ottawa
    Sorry Jim,
    Saw 2 lines of screws on the floor and measured 24". Never occurred to me that it would be 12". They are actually 12" apart. What was ripped up was marble composite tiles that had been on the floor since 1989. No cracks or any problems in that time and this bathroom is used every day. The tile also had a 1/2" sublfoor on top of the 5/8" OSB.
  6. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,126
    Location:
    New England
    12"oc verses 24"oc bumps the deflection to L/744 from L/372 or so...a BIG difference. Natural stone should be above L/720, and yours does if the species is SYP or DF and in good condition. It could still be marginal for natural stone if it is some other wood species.
  7. Freddie

    Freddie New Member

    Messages:
    54
    Location:
    Ottawa
    The wood is in great condition from what I can see. House was brand new in 1989 and I see no signs of warping or excessive holes, etc.. There's been no changes to the house in this area since we moved in and we are the original owners. Wood is kiln-dried SPF (spruce pine fir). So should be fine. These are pretty good houses in a nice neighbourhood and most of the city is built by this home builder. From what I've seen in all my projects in this house, everything was built properly. I've seen no shortcuts or lazy workers remnants yet.

    But it is good to know that I can put down some natural stone if I want.

    thanks,
  8. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,385
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    post(s) deleted by John Whipple
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
  9. Freddie

    Freddie New Member

    Messages:
    54
    Location:
    Ottawa
    Hi John,

    Did a bit more research on ACO linear drains at exit and found the flowrate specs for the various drains and heads of water. Looks like minimum of 6 gpm on 36" shower drain with no head and around 8.5 gpm with 0.2" of head. So I would think with only 2 shower heads at 2.5 gpm there should be no problem especially if you lower the linear drain a bit below the tile level as you mentioned previously and then maybe a bit of dry side slope. I will probably try to fit in a wider shower stall, even if it is a few inches more say to fit in the roughly 40" drain. That'll also give me an additional 10% of flow capacity.

    Have you had any better success with any specific grate design in applications like this? They all seem to look good and I do like the lit drain option if it's not too expensive an option.
  10. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,385
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    post(s) deleted by John Whipple
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
  11. Freddie

    Freddie New Member

    Messages:
    54
    Location:
    Ottawa
    Will work on floor joist drawing. Do you want to whole bathroom or would just the area around the shower work for you? Been through the whole design with a number of people; not much other locations for the shower anyways.

    No TTMAC tile specs. Will get if I decide that I'm gonna do the tiling.

    Was doing a heated floor but was not planning on doing it below the shower.
  12. Freddie

    Freddie New Member

    Messages:
    54
    Location:
    Ottawa
    Also, can't seem to find much information on the linear grate linear drain from ACO except for the following:

    http://www.quartzbyaco.com/grate-styles

    It states that the Intake sq. in. = 55.38 which is 60% more than the next nearest grate style "Flag". Cannot find any spec on "Linear" grate flow rate and I would assume that it would get more than the Flag based on a higher intake. Looking at a chart they have in their technical manual for flow rates at 0" head:


    No grate = 6.65 usgpm
    Tile = 6.49 usgpm (makes sense that it would be less given that it has blocked off some of the intake area with tile)
    Flag = 6.34 usgpm

    Now this is where I get confused. Flag has intake sq. in. = 31.36 while Tile has intake sq. in. = 18.10. Wouldn't you think the one with the larger intake area would be able to process more flow?

    Now trying to estimate flow for the linear grate which is not shown and it has intake sq. in. = 55.38.

    So either this is not the intake opening of the grate or something is not correct.

    All these numbers come from page 16 of the technical manual:

    http://www.quartzbyaco.com/sites/default/files/technical_handbook.pdf

    Can anyone clarfiy? Thanks,
  13. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,385
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    post(s) deleted by John Whipple
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
  14. Freddie

    Freddie New Member

    Messages:
    54
    Location:
    Ottawa
    Here's my joist layout dwg after a bit of cutting out of the floor. Hopefully it shows up ok. Ensuite Joists_0001.jpg

    Now let me explain:

    1. The top horizontal line is the inside of the wall framing on the external wall.
    2. The far right vertical line is the inside of the wall framing on the external wall.
    3. The dashed line indicates a wall I will be adding to run the plumbing so that it is inside the insulation.
    4. All the joist are 2" x 10".
    5. Horizontal dimensions are (from right to left): 0,10,26,42 inches
    6. Vertical dimension are (from top to bottom): 0, 26, 36.25,42,48.5 inches

    Also, here is a snapshot of how it currently looks:

    Ensuite Bathroom Reno 034 resized.jpg
  15. Freddie

    Freddie New Member

    Messages:
    54
    Location:
    Ottawa
    The linear grate from ACO will be I'm sure the highest flow rate of their grate options - the tile top the lowest.

    That's what I would have thought as well. Just saying their data sheets seem a bit wonky on that. If you see a spec sheet on the linear grate with respect to flowrates I'd appreciate it if you could forward a copy or a link to it.

    thx,
  16. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,385
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    post(s) deleted by John Whipple
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
  17. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,126
    Location:
    New England
    FWIW, most of the strength in a solid joist is established by an intact top and bottom section - one in tension, the other in compression. The rules for drilling holes restrict cutting holes near the ends since that's where walls and things may be located and pose a crush risk. Other than that, the holes need leave the top and bottom of the joist intact. Think I-beam or truss...the top and bottom are important, while on some designs, the middle is mostly open. Basically, the middle holds the top and bottom in the right place in a beam, but may not contribute a lot to the overall strength. That's why there are restrictions on where you can drill holes. The further apart the top and bottom are, the stronger it gets (if you can keep the top and bottom aligned).
  18. Freddie

    Freddie New Member

    Messages:
    54
    Location:
    Ottawa
  19. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,385
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    post(s) deleted by John Whipple
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
  20. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,385
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    post(s) deleted by John Whipple
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
Similar Threads: Curbless Shower
Forum Title Date
Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog Drain height code for curbless showers Sep 22, 2013
Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog UPC Book with Curbless Showers Aug 13, 2013
Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog Curbless shower rough in Apr 3, 2013
Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog My curbless steam shower project Mar 29, 2013
Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog Building 2 curbless doorless showers, need advice May 23, 2011

Share This Page