Crane walson wall mounted toilet

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CGocool

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We recently bought a 1938 house and the only bathroom has a wall mounted Crane Walsan toilet. We always heard water running in the tank and just thought it was standard for the amount of years or type. Then we got our water bill and immediately called a plumber. They were familiar with vintage fixtures and had no problem getting replacement parts at a local shop. He replaced the rubber valve on the bottom of the tank and also the brass mechanism. The brass ball was left as is. We still hear constant running water, but plumber says these toilets are constantly recirculating and its not running down toilet. Im still not sure this is right as the water is constantly flowing into the overflow pipe. I imagine this is why are water bill is so high. Any thoughts? Do you always hear water running in these old units (toilet is from 1932)?

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Reach4

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Are you keeping the old toilet for non-financial reasons?

I am skeptical that water will circulate without consuming water. Turn off the water to the toilet, and if that stop valve works, I expect the sound to stop.
 

WJcandee

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Okay, so your Walsan has an in-wall tank? And the bowl is mounted on the wall? (Ad below is from 1959.)

$(KGrHqN,!ocFINGFN78lBSHU9egW4!~~60_57.JPG


You say the guy had no trouble getting parts, but I'm wondering why he didn't work on the ballcock to make it stop running into the overflow.

The original back-supply top-feed ballcock for this toilet (Scovill model 12) IS still available in some places, so replacing it is doable if it can't be fixed or adjusted properly.

Like Terry says, a photo or video of the thing would be very helpful. I'm extremely dubious that the water "recirculates" without running into a drain.
 
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hj

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Toilets do NOT "constantly circulate water" so he was either trying to dazzle you with his brilliance or baffle you with his B.S. Either way he just didn't want to fix your problem.
 

CGocool

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I'm attaching some pictures. Since he has "fixed" the issues, the water now rises above the ball, over the water line marked in the tank, and drains into overflow. Continuous, unless we turn off plastic water valve and then the water stains from the toilet. We've called him back out to fix. Any suggestions on what I should be asking him to do?
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Reach4

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I would lift a bit on the ball. It is possible that the ball is partially waterlogged, and the flotation force is not quite enough.

I don't see that as probable, but it is easy to check. Also inspect to see if something is catching on the rod or the ball causing the ball to not rise higher.

Otherwise it would seem to be the valve.
 

Terry

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The fill valve should be able to shut off before the water gets to the overflow tube.
It it rised and goes into the overflow, it's not working.
I do feel for the plumber though. Standard parts off the shelf won't do it. I could still use a picture of the bottom of the tank if that is possible.
That is a strange looking set up.
 

WJcandee

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The fill valve should be able to shut off before the water gets to the overflow tube.
It it rised and goes into the overflow, it's not working.
I do feel for the plumber though. Standard parts off the shelf won't do it. I could still use a picture of the bottom of the tank if that is possible.
That is a strange looking set up.

Terry, I don't feel for the guy. It seems like he replaced the fill valve, which is an oddball design (back-supply, top-feed), but is readily available for around $100.

Looking at what he put in there, it is similar to the proper Scoville model 12, but seems to be a little different. Maybe another brand. Maybe not the right valve.

Assuming that it's the right part, it just seems like he did not properly adjust it. I would find someone else to do the work, or simply take the time to educate myself how the valve works and adjust it properly.

I certainly think it is amazingly-stupid not to replace that float ball with a standard modern one for maximum buoyancy.

Scovill Model 12 fill valve for Walsan -- it typically has a shutoff built right into the top of it:

12new.jpg


I have also seen pictures of jerry-rigged Walsan repair designs where someone takes a 400A or 528 and runs a pipe down the side of the interior of the tank to the bottom of the tank and then uses two 90s to create something to screw the valve into. That would work, but no reason to do it when you can just put in the Scovill. The real issue here is that this is not a complicated tank setup (weird, but not complicated). It's basically a Douglas-style flush valve in the bottom of the tank and an interior ballcock that mounts from the top. No biggie. Just needs to be adjusted properly. Since it no longer leaks, now it overflows because the guy didn't adjust it right and didn't replace the ballcock ball.

Oh, and GC -- what he told you about recycling the water is total BS. I mean, embarassingly-so. Tell him we're laughing our asses off about that pathetic lie. Did he really think he was going to get away with it? Are you in a jurisdiction that licenses plumbers? If so, I would give them a call and discuss.

And GC, how about a couple of photos looking down into the tank so we can see what's going on in there, and one facing back towards us so we can see the whole fill valve.
 
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Terry

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I feel for him regarding the fix.
But if he didn't fix it, he should have said he didn't. Telling the homeowner that water leaking into the bowl is a "feature" is plain crazy.
He already had a high water bill. His "fix" didn't fix that. It needs to be fixed.
Thanks for posting a picture of the part. There seems to be very little information on this model.
 

WJcandee

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There seems to be very little information on this model.

I think it's a fascinating thing. Nowadays the Geberit in-wall tank and Duravit and Toto bowls are extremely-popular in high-end installations. Amazing that back in the 1930s, Crane actually produced an almost-identical product (that didn't exactly set the world on fire).

Of course, the WalSan tank is GiNormous (and thereby less-viable for most homeowners) because the idea of using any less than 7 gallons in a flush was heresy at the time! And it seems that the idea of accessing the tank and guts through the plate for the trip mechanism hadn't surfaced yet, so you need to get at the thing from the wall behind it.

Nevertheless, these guys were literally 80 years before their time.
 

WJcandee

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To answer the poster's questions:

(1) You say that the water drains from the tank when you turn off the water supply to toilet? If so, then he hasn't fixed the flush valve yet, maybe just made it leak much more slowly. Also, depending upon how low it goes, you might want to check and make sure that the copper pipe that goes from the fill valve into the overflow riser isn't stuck way down in there, because that can siphon the water out of the tank through the fill valve.

(2) You say that it continues to rise past the optimal water line and up and over into the overflow riser. This means it isn't shutting off or shutting off enough.

Solution to #1. Fix the flush valve, after testing to make sure it isn't cracked and leaking anywhere other than around the flush ball. The overflow riser and/or the base of the flush valve could be cracked. If so, it should be replaced or the crack soldered. If it's just that the flush ball isn't sealing, either fix the flush-ball-and-wire setup, which any halfway-competent plumber should be able to do, or replace the flush ball with a flapper (Korky Model 2000bp, for example) that works on Douglas flush valves, assuming that it fits.

Solution to #2. If this plumber has ever adjusted a real ballcock before (and not just replaced it with a Fluidmaster 400A because adjusting the ballcock required too much skill), he should have no trouble adjusting the fill valve in that toilet. It isn't rocket science. The ball rises on an arm, and, just like a bottom-mounted ballcock, the rising ball lifts the arm and the lifted arm operates a valve which stops the flow of water. There are a couple of different designs, i.e. diaphram-style and piston-style, but they all can be adjusted. Seriously, if he can adjust a Wolverine Brass ballcock, he can adjust yours (or replace or repair it if he hasn't already).

The company that sells the Scovill fill valve that I showed above includes instructions for installation and adjustment with it. If he has thrown those away (or hasn't replaced the fill valve and it just looks pristine to me), then try calling them and see if they will fax you or email you the instructions. Then tell him to put on his glasses and read them. Then everything should be fine.

Let us know as this proceeds, as we're eager to see some more photos and help you towards a positive result.
 

CGocool

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Thank you all for your help. The plumber did come out again and replaced the float ball. The water now fills correctly and doesn't teach the overflow pipe. No charge as anything that needs to be done on the toilet now they will do for nothing within a year. Not bad, but just do it right the first time. There is still a slow trickle of water that comes out of a copper/brass tube that curves into the overflow valve. In "wise one" picture above of the valve this looks like a black rubber or plastic. Should this be happening? I'm happy though for now, I think we have fixed the major reason or water bill was so high. Were adding another bathroom soon so this'd won't be or main toilet, I'll probably turn water off to it unless we have guests. Is that bad?
 
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Reach4

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See (1) in reply #13. You want the output of the tube to be higher than the water level. In newer toilets, this is accomplished with a clip that holds the flex tube above the overflow. If yours is semi-rigid, you could carefully bend it such that it does not go down into the overflow-- just comes to the overflow maybe 3/8 inch or more above the water level in the tank.
 
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